Many agree that amsec/strudy are equal

Cesiumsponge,

Here as a wider view of that safe in the attack. The person who owned the safe was a fireman and he left his fire ax by his gun safe which is what the would be robber used. Sturdy Safe Attacked with fire ax

You can see that there are definitely cut marks on the 7ga body so it did resist the impacts at these points. The guy who attacked the safe clearly wasn't very smart otherwise he wouldn't have spent so much time on the hinges but the end result of this attack is the guy didn't get into the safe.

To resist an impact attack with a fire ax against 7ga steel, having a soft low carbon isn't the best choice because a fire ax might be able to cut through the softer grade. A hardened steel might begin to crack after repeated impacts. Structural steel, like what Sturdy uses, will flex quite a bit allowing more of the energy to be spread across a wider area.

Thank you for the picture, it shows a lot more context because that little clipped image was quite small. Looks like a typical attack. We're lucky thieves usually have no level of sophistication and attacks consist of "smash the dial, smash the handle". Based on the markings, it was a standard fire axe kept with a halligan bar so the opposite end of the axe is flat with no pick, otherwise I'd like to make an assumption that even the bluntest of criminals would at least swing the opposite end a few times. There doesn't seem to be any markings that indicate a pick attack on the door. The irons combo requires a flat end on the axe to work the halligan for forcible entry, so unfortunately we didn't get to see if the safe would fare well against a pick attack on the door or body. I'm sure a 5/16" door would have no issues but I'm curious to see if it would punch 7ga. The pick is fairly devastating and I'd be interested in seeing if a pick-attacked Sturdy surfaces down the road.

Does Sturdy advertise the specific type of steel used? Structural steel is a very broad term, similar to "aircraft grade aluminum" which is equally meaningless because there are so many alloys and treatments available. I recall the steel plate I acquired was A36 from a big 4x8' sheet used for patching bulldozer bodies (not the actual bucket which I believe is AR500)

There is a wide range of "hardened steel" and I wasn't suggesting something over 50Rc, which as you stated, is brittle despite hardness, but if we keep it at a "springier" level, it can become very resilient to impact and shock. I have a piece of MIL A-12560 Class 2 armor plate which is specifically designed for impact and shock resistance from explosive ordnance. I use it as a gong and haven't damaged it at all to date. A few other shooters lucky enough to get in on that material are using 50BMGs on their gongs with no problems. Untreated, non-exotic steel is pretty soft by nature (relatively speaking). I've put M193 through 3/16" steel ties and M855 through 3/8" steel plate without much protest. Of course, shooting at steel isn't the same as attacking it by hand with hand tools, but picks are devastating. They spelled the end of the knight class when peasants developed pick-type designs in certain weapons like warhammers and maces.

Does Sturdy advertise the specific type of steel used? Structural steel is a very broad term, similar to "aircraft grade aluminum" which is equally meaningless because there are so many alloys and treatments available. I recall the steel plate I acquired was A36 from a big 4x8' sheet used for patching bulldozer bodies (not the actual bucket which I believe is AR500)

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Cesiumsponge you do make very good points, you are a smart guy, I can tell,

Funny you should say "aircraft grade aluminum", I don't know if you saw earlier but I did say that I worked for a large aluminum company. The company I work for is Alcoa and most of those aircraft alloys used in the aerospace industry we developed so when you made your comment I immediately thought to myself: 'what is the application (I.e., landing gear, wing superstructure, fuselage skin, what is the company the application is being used for, what is the generation etc.) So point well taken, more to a general category of "aircraft grade aluminum", "structural steel" than it might appear to the casual observer.

Well, what I'm basing my statement on is what I saw Alyssa say to a customer when asked 'what they used for a steel grade'. She said and I paraphrase "we always try to get a structural steel of A572 grade 50 but if that is not available we will substitute a A36 grade". That makes a lot of sense to me since Grade 50 and A36 have great welding characteristics, have good durability and strength too; Terry is a very smart steel fabricator and will use the best materials for his application which it appears he's trying to do.

Now to the fire ax, well it's hard to tell how far the blade edge of the fire ax penetrated the safe body in the attack. It looks like around 1/8" (10ga) to me as a rough guess so that would leave another 1/16th of an inch of steel before the safe's interior was finally penetrated. So would the pick ax portion of a fire ax be enough of a focus of energy to make it through the final 1/16" of steel? ... maybe. But, as Lee Roder so intelligently pointed out earlier, to actually open the safe using the fire ax, you have to poke the holes with the pick the connect the dots with the blade; this I don't see as being possible with this safe in a reasonable amount of time (I.e., much more than an hour.)

I doubt that Sturdy uses putty.

Previous quote from heeler -

You know BiGGBAY the fact that you cant get the Amsec dealers in NYC to cut you a decent price and even if you went online the shipping to NYC would bite pretty hard.
So since Sturdy's price is with shipping if it were me under those circumstances then I would chose the Sturdy by default.
Just bolt it down,load it with goods, and call it a day.
As has been noted both of these gun safes at the price they are selling for and the features they offer are way ahead of their competetion.

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BIGGBAY90 - Make a list of questions & call Terry at Sturdy tomorrow! He will answer all your questions honestly.

Also, call our place in Houston again & let me or heeler know if you need help.

Now to the fire ax, well it's hard to tell how far the blade edge of the fire ax penetrated the safe body in the attack. It looks like around 1/8" (10ga) to me as a rough guess so that would leave another 1/16th of an inch of steel before the safe's interior was finally penetrated.

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Based on Sturdy's own photographs (shown again below), I'd say it was much less than that. I'm assuming that was 12 gauge steel shown in their photo. 12 gauge is only 1/10" thick, and you'll notice where there are various axe marks that missed their target. Those marks did not penetrate the steel.

Although the safe in the photo was clearly attacked, if that's all the damage that was done, it was a very quick and unmotivated attack. Not to say that the safe wouldn't have held up to much more abuse, but there simply wasn't much doled out on the safe in the photo.

It looks like the dial was probably hit at least once, but there are no marks on the safe around the dial. The dial probably wasn't even knocked off, as it appears it was removed by whomever had to drill it open. It appears that they may have activated the internal relocker.

The handle has what appears to be 10 or so strikes around it, and the hinge about the same. I don't know if the body was attacked at all, but just looking at the door, you're looking at about a minute worth of beating.

the picture of that safe which you have shown us, do you know if it was repaired and how (a new door or just putty and paint?

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Most gun safe manufacturers with the "after burglary" type warranties would probably be willing to replace the safe (or the door) even with this minimal damage. I have replaced safes in homes with similar damage that was paid for with insurance proceeds.

If this was a commercial safe, it would probably be repaired on site due to the minimal damage. There's no structural damage. A new handle, lock, some putty, and some paint and you'd be back in business.

I doubt that Sturdy uses putty.

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I've never looked at the Sturdies that I've seen to inspect for putty, because it's not really something I normally look for. However, it is very common on any painted steel item, including safes. It makes for a much smoother painted surface.

I also had one of my welders look at the photo we were discussing using the axe attack. He sees some of the same damage I see on safes, as he does all of the mobile welding for me.



I said earlier that I thought it looked funny, and he had an instant answer for me. He said that it appears to have been hit from both sides. He said the puncture from the fire axe appeared to come from the back side of the sheet towards the camera. He pointed to the edges of the steel that were "pushed" through are visible on the camera side. Some of the metal along the tear is also bent towards the camera side.

Of course if you look on either side of the tear, you can see axe marks that would have been made from the camera side swinging towards the back.

Although I am positive you can still cut through 12 gauge steel with an axe, it sure would be easier being able to weaken it from both sides. Of course you only have access to one side on a safe.

I wasn't really. Many here can attest to that.

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Oh, I believe you. I was trying to highlight the difference between you and this Sturdy flash mob that's shown up recently posting what feels like an infomercial script.

Front and side view of that fire ax impact.

Front and side view of that fire ax impact.

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Are those photos of the same damage? I'm having a tough time matching one to the other.

Me too---FOR THE RECORD, THAT IS A 12GA----RIGHT?

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Aside from somebody saying it is, there's no way to know for sure. It is typical of they type of damage I have seen on 12 gauge safes before, so I have no reason to believe it's not.

Also keep in mind that it is unsupported steel. There's nothing behind it to slow the penetration. Even the gypsum board in a safe would provide some (although not much) resistance.

This is 10ga (1/8") after one blow of a fire ax, it looks it was hit by the "pick ax" portion of the ax.

Other picture is 12ga.

10 ga wow!-----is there anything safe out here and can that be done with 7 ga as well, AND BY THE WAY I DID READ ABOUT CERAMIC FIRE PROOF MATERIALS AND THEY SAID IT WOULD BE GREAT PROTECTION

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Of course it can be done to 7 gauge too. 3/16" is just between 6 and 7 gauge in thickness. To give you an idea, the difference in thickness between 10 gauge and 3/16" is approximately 1/20".

18 gauge steel is about 1/20". So the difference between 10 gauge and 3/16" is roughly the same thickness as this novelty sign.



I've said it many times. If you want to get yourself out of the reach of hand tools, you need to be out of gauge steel sheet, and up into the 3/8" to 1/2" range of plate. You can't bend it by hand, you can't pierce it by hand. Of course you'll still have to worry about power tools.

AND BY THE WAY I DID READ ABOUT CERAMIC FIRE PROOF MATERIALS AND THEY SAID IT WOULD BE GREAT PROTECTION

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The only safe manufacturers saying that are a few gun safe manufacturers. All of the big boys, with the real safes, with real ratings, are not using it (except as a secondary insulation in data safes).

Of the hundreds of real safe manufacturers, and the thousands of safes that carry a UL fire rating, nobody can point to one that uses ceramic insulation. I even expanded that search to manufacturers from around the world, and am running into the same problem. Nobody seems to be using it, and there has to be a reason for that.

The reality is a1abdj is right.
Period.
However,again guys,we are getting to the point of straining gnats here.
Your typical burglar whose original aim was only getting your goods suddenly stumbles across your BF or Sturdy will be pretty much SOL with what he has brought to the fight with him.
Dont give him a second chance by having fire axes,sledgehammers,big pry bars,a sawzall with good blades,or your cutting torch laying around.
Bolt your safe down and put it in a strategic strong point to further frustrate him/they against being able to pry it in the first place.
If I was a thief I damn sure wouldn't waste my time beating on solid steel of the thickness and mass of these two safes.
Power tools are much easier.
And generally only the experienced and determined thief is coming at you with these.
And generally because they know you have that safe.
Keep quiet about it.

10 ga wow!-----is there anything safe out here and can that be done with 7 ga as well, AND BY THE WAY I DID READ ABOUT CERAMIC FIRE PROOF MATERIALS AND THEY SAID IT WOULD BE GREAT PROTECTION

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Thickness of the steel is very important but equally important is the grade of steel. In the photo of the 10ga if you look close, the metal has sheared which is to say the metal essentially "slips" along what are slip planes at a molecular level. I don't know for sure if the 3/16" plate of A50 steel would completely prevent a similar thing from happening but I believe and the evidence appears to support (through the fireman's safe)that the metal will absorb the blow and the shell will not be breached as you see in the other cases with 12ga and 10ga shown above.

Of course it can be done to 7 gauge too. 3/16" is just between 6 and 7 gauge in thickness. To give you an idea, the difference in thickness between 10 gauge and 3/16" is approximately 1/20".

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What people need to do is pick up a set of dial calipers. 3/16" is .1875". Now spread a set of dial calipers to .1875" and take a peek.

Now, 10 gauge steel measures .1345". That's a whopping difference of .053". Spread those dial calipers out to .053" and take a peek, and then seriously tell me that you think .053" is going to make it any harder to pop a fire ax through a Sturdy safe. It's laughable.

I am fairly certain most people say "aircraft-grade aluminum" to make it sounds more buzz-wordy to sell products to general consumers. The thought that comes to my mind is, "as opposed to what, car grade aluminum? Pot metal aluminum?" Many of our customers are aerospace so we must use material with traceable certifications from the mill (we order from Alcoa too). If we do commercial work, its generally the same material but we don't pay for the certs or extra testing. It could be the same batch of 6061-T6 but aerospace require 100% traceability so in reality, its just more paperwork in many (not all) cases.

The steel on fire axes are designed to be abused not just on wood and drywall, but a variety of other materials like carpet, fiberglass, wiring, etc. I am making an educated guess that they are probably in the lower 50's on the Rockwell C scale with less acute blade geometry so they are tough and don't chip if they strike concrete or a hard surface that might be encountered. They're also not kept keen like a woodsman's axe so they won't roll the edge over as easily.

A pick will probably punch through most steels that aren't plate, but probably not in just one swing as it gets thicker, but there is a lot of kinetic energy there, probably similar to the kinetic energy of a bullet since you're complementing the mass of the axe head with your own body weight to some degree. If anyone here is familiar with the use of cold chisels, it's used to cut steel and shear bolts. But as mentioned, putting a hole in a safe doesn't mean you'll get it open and 99% of us don't have pickaxes laying around in the garage so its not as probable a burglary tool. On commercial safes, they put high security concrete behind it so even if you had a pickaxe, the mechanism to penetrate the skin becomes plastic deformation of the steel by displacing material over simply shearing through it. In old handbooks, you can find pictures of chisels hammered through several inches of steel. The right type of steel in the right geometry with the right type of force applied can do wonders. This happened to be an interesting link I came across, page 894 and 895:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NohNAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA895&ots=kJrFAbupTL&pg=PA894#v=onepage&q&f=false

But as several have pointed, most just smash the dial and handle.

Yea, but if a1adbj says that a firebroad can help a little, why not even a fraction of steel make a different

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Splitting hairs when you are talking the small thicknesses that we are discussing here.