Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, but good luck curing a Staph infection.
Guns for Investment Purposes
- Thread starter Rayford
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bushmaster1313
Member
There were only 5740 Ithaca knick trap guns made and no more will ever come out of Ithaca New York.
That is scarcity!
That is scarcity!
GunsAmerica Fan
Member
I got busy and lost track of this thread but this is a point I hadn't realized that I think requires elaboration for the naysayers here.
Did you see the most recent Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe? It very much stressed that the taxes and wealth that the king got from his conquests were used to fight wars, which means to buy or make arms, and to pay soldiers.
When I saw this post (and leadcounsel was a naysayer), I realized that historically that is what wealth, in gold, has been valued for, the ability to protect what you have.
This is an oversimplification of course, especially with all the real market forces we have been speaking about it doesn't really matter in todays terms. But it is interesting to think about what a bankroll of gold has historically represented. I would argue that it is still in play today, that China is buying up gold because they want a fallback on the dollar should the world heat up.
Jorg Nysgerrig
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Funny, you'd think that if China was so smart they'd buy guns from GunsAmerica.com instead of gold. Perhaps you should email them a copy of your article and we'll see if they change their investment strategy to fine shotguns.
GunsAmerica Fan
Member
Oh I'm sure their leadership has homes full of high grade shotguns. That ship sailed a long time ago back with Japan in the 80s. They don't have to buy them on GA and I'm sure we are firewalled anyway at the great wall.
There was an article on drudge this week about chinese demand and all of the protests that are starting to light up there to get higher wages to buy all of the crap we make. You watch in two months the gold bubble will burst just like condos on south beach.
There was an article on drudge this week about chinese demand and all of the protests that are starting to light up there to get higher wages to buy all of the crap we make. You watch in two months the gold bubble will burst just like condos on south beach.
Rembrandt
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GunsAmerica Fan said:
The point people miss about precious metals is that no matter what shape or form, it retains a value.....guns and condos can be melted down, but not much value left. Gold has been in demand since before the Pharoahs.....and will no doubt continue to be in demand for the future. Unlike condos, it's transportable and can be reshaped...even into bullets if need be.
GunsAmerica Fan
Member
If you look at OP this was about small money safe storage. Is it smarter to buy gold today at $1400 an once or guns, that are at the bottom of their value right now. I just got my flier from Arizona Shooting Range in lauderdale Pz and all the black pistols are $80-$200 off. You can even buy higher demand black guns at the bottom of their market value today. Even if gold peaks over 2k, how do you know when to sell? And you'll be selling it for dollars presumably, which may be subject to heavy inflation once all of this funny money the govt is printing makes it into the system. If you buy a Px4 or a Sig 250 or even an SW Sigma it is going to worth more or at least the same as you paid for it in ten years.
Rembrant, if we get to the point where people are collecting and melting down guns, everyone on this forum will already be dead.
Rembrant, if we get to the point where people are collecting and melting down guns, everyone on this forum will already be dead.
GunsAmericaFan,
modern guns that are mass produced and not labour but profit intensive, like the Glocks, have not appreciated in the last years.
My Korth did, my Pyhon did a little since I shelled out big bucks in 1985, and my Anschütz rifles, the Hämmerli, and the 1911s did.
I had expected the Glocks to go up more than some others. Talking about utility value.
modern guns that are mass produced and not labour but profit intensive, like the Glocks, have not appreciated in the last years.
My Korth did, my Pyhon did a little since I shelled out big bucks in 1985, and my Anschütz rifles, the Hämmerli, and the 1911s did.
I had expected the Glocks to go up more than some others. Talking about utility value.
ARE guns really at their low in value?
Then by all means, buy as many as you can, IF you are set up to defend them and peddle them for sale. Today's not a day to buy bushels of Au or Ag. Groceries may also be on the sliding scale; the utility of a gun is decreased if you are starving and don't like the taste of Pb. Find your own comfortable balance-point. Times are definitely changing. Make two piles of your guns: (1) pile of guns you won't leave home without their accompaniment, and (2) the other pile of all of the rest. "All of the rest" should be ready for sale; you won't need them. Then do push-ups while in full BOB dress until you can run around the block twice, with all the guns in (1) above. You may need to further explore, with a 70-lb pack. And the point of this all is, "Your Gun Is Your Life." Lots of questions.
Then by all means, buy as many as you can, IF you are set up to defend them and peddle them for sale. Today's not a day to buy bushels of Au or Ag. Groceries may also be on the sliding scale; the utility of a gun is decreased if you are starving and don't like the taste of Pb. Find your own comfortable balance-point. Times are definitely changing. Make two piles of your guns: (1) pile of guns you won't leave home without their accompaniment, and (2) the other pile of all of the rest. "All of the rest" should be ready for sale; you won't need them. Then do push-ups while in full BOB dress until you can run around the block twice, with all the guns in (1) above. You may need to further explore, with a 70-lb pack. And the point of this all is, "Your Gun Is Your Life." Lots of questions.
A gun will help me hunt food, protect myself people who wish to take my gun, and steal other people's gold. (assuming they themselves don't have gold)
So despite what Glenn Beck is being paid to tell me, no thanks. Moreover, I've learned that when people start suspecting a commodity might be a bubble, run.
But no, I don't view my firearms as collectors pieces. They are tools of enjoyment. If they gain value in the future, great. But I view them as costs as sunk.
So despite what Glenn Beck is being paid to tell me, no thanks. Moreover, I've learned that when people start suspecting a commodity might be a bubble, run.
But no, I don't view my firearms as collectors pieces. They are tools of enjoyment. If they gain value in the future, great. But I view them as costs as sunk.
You didn't hear Glenn Beck tell you to buy ...
ANYTHING. He has advertisers (it's called "capitalism") and they tell you to buy all sort of stuff. You say, "Moreover, I've learned.." I've been buying and selling Au, Ag, and guns since probably before you were born (1960?). I have never lost a cent on precious metals, and am still way above water on the guns I bought. My opinion is mine, and is succeeding, and YMMV. Experience is a good teacher. Hang around a while longer -- like for the next ninety days and you'll see the wisdom of "buy lower, sell higher." A year ago I made the "two pile decision" , sold pile #2 and bought Au at 790/oz. It's way above that now, but still not a time NOT to buy, wisely. Discretion is the greater part of valor.
ANYTHING. He has advertisers (it's called "capitalism") and they tell you to buy all sort of stuff. You say, "Moreover, I've learned.." I've been buying and selling Au, Ag, and guns since probably before you were born (1960?). I have never lost a cent on precious metals, and am still way above water on the guns I bought. My opinion is mine, and is succeeding, and YMMV. Experience is a good teacher. Hang around a while longer -- like for the next ninety days and you'll see the wisdom of "buy lower, sell higher." A year ago I made the "two pile decision" , sold pile #2 and bought Au at 790/oz. It's way above that now, but still not a time NOT to buy, wisely. Discretion is the greater part of valor.
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Because they fill very specialized requirements in various fields including but not limited to creating electronic gadgets, automotive parts, etc. Firearms will never be used to create an essential part of a catalytic converter, or create pathways for a semiconductor.
Precious metals and gems are not just pretty things at which to gaze, they have many practical applications that are in high demand, and because of their relative scarcity, or the complexity and cost of obtaining them, they command the prices dictated by the market.
I hope this helps to answer your question.
GunsAmerica Fan
Member
Well you didn't really answer his question. The demand from electronics and semiconductors are not driving the demand for gold, not even 1%.
The real reason is that there are not alot of vehicles to store "wealth." And as many posters here have noted, gold has historically been one of the few that is unimpeachable for trade purposes. It is considered extremely liquid, meaning you can trade it off when you need your wealth for real needs of life.
It also has a perceived scarcity, so the price can fluctuate with demand very freely (this was not so prior to the depression). Perceived scarcity is also a huge factor with stones. If you want to see a good movie on this subject check out Blood Diamond. It'll really open your eyes to the scam we fall into buying our girls the best diamonds we can afford.
I would separate stones out completely for that reason in fact. You don't pay 10k for a 1 carat Hearts on Fire diamond because it could technically be used in cutting and laser technology. You pay because it looks pretty and all the facets are hearts lol.
Gold right now is all about fear. People have wealth that they want to be worth something in the future. Do you keep it in dollars? No, everyone is worried that the dollar will collapse. Euros? No, Greece already almost dissolved the whole thing. There are very few countries on good financial footing right now. That fear of losing what they have is driving people to seek the old safe standard, gold.
So I ask all the people who bought gold at 700, looks like you are doing great with your investment. Are you going to sell now? Are you now going to keep that money in American greenbacks? Are you going to hold and see if you can get 2k for it? Well then you are back to getting paid in dollars.
Whereas if I buy a used AK today for $300, no matter what the country does and which way the economy goes, you can pretty much be assured it will never be worth less than that in actual barter value (which is the thinking with buying gold). The mods think my suggestion of high grade shotguns is a joke, but I can also assure you that if you buy a $50,000 Beretta today, you can keep it in your safe as long or short as you want, no matter which way the economy goes, and it'll be worth 50k in actual value.
Nobody can argue that there is money to be made playing the precious metal market, or the stock market, or the currency market, whatever. But if you want to store wealth in a safe vehicle at the value you purchase it today, there is no comparison to guns.
They are the best investment today.
The real reason is that there are not alot of vehicles to store "wealth." And as many posters here have noted, gold has historically been one of the few that is unimpeachable for trade purposes. It is considered extremely liquid, meaning you can trade it off when you need your wealth for real needs of life.
It also has a perceived scarcity, so the price can fluctuate with demand very freely (this was not so prior to the depression). Perceived scarcity is also a huge factor with stones. If you want to see a good movie on this subject check out Blood Diamond. It'll really open your eyes to the scam we fall into buying our girls the best diamonds we can afford.
I would separate stones out completely for that reason in fact. You don't pay 10k for a 1 carat Hearts on Fire diamond because it could technically be used in cutting and laser technology. You pay because it looks pretty and all the facets are hearts lol.
Gold right now is all about fear. People have wealth that they want to be worth something in the future. Do you keep it in dollars? No, everyone is worried that the dollar will collapse. Euros? No, Greece already almost dissolved the whole thing. There are very few countries on good financial footing right now. That fear of losing what they have is driving people to seek the old safe standard, gold.
So I ask all the people who bought gold at 700, looks like you are doing great with your investment. Are you going to sell now? Are you now going to keep that money in American greenbacks? Are you going to hold and see if you can get 2k for it? Well then you are back to getting paid in dollars.
Whereas if I buy a used AK today for $300, no matter what the country does and which way the economy goes, you can pretty much be assured it will never be worth less than that in actual barter value (which is the thinking with buying gold). The mods think my suggestion of high grade shotguns is a joke, but I can also assure you that if you buy a $50,000 Beretta today, you can keep it in your safe as long or short as you want, no matter which way the economy goes, and it'll be worth 50k in actual value.
Nobody can argue that there is money to be made playing the precious metal market, or the stock market, or the currency market, whatever. But if you want to store wealth in a safe vehicle at the value you purchase it today, there is no comparison to guns.
They are the best investment today.
Unless you bought at peak, then you are screwed. But that doesn't count for some reason; we just pretend that those guns and those buyers don't exist and all those EBR's flooding the market are figments of your imagination.
reloader-1
Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2009
- Messages
- 62
I actually agree with GA here - but only to a point.
He raises the interestesting point that IF gold is still barter material in a SHTF scenario, it would only be tradable for a like value that was originally paid for it. In other words, if I paid $1000 for an ounce of gold, giving up the opportunity to buy 10 pairs of jeans, that ounce should buy me 10 pairs of jeans in a semi-SHTF scenario.
However, I disagree with his $50,000 shotgun comment. A collectible item (apartements, dolls, guns, etc) is only worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. Otherwise, it sells for it's actual utility value (look at Beanie Babies a while back, now they fetch the $4 that they should be worth).
Basically, in a true SHTF scenario, your $50,000 shotgun would be worth (in barter) about the same as a Mossberg 500 pump. (or maybe even less!) It would revert to intrinsic value, which is a shotgun.
He raises the interestesting point that IF gold is still barter material in a SHTF scenario, it would only be tradable for a like value that was originally paid for it. In other words, if I paid $1000 for an ounce of gold, giving up the opportunity to buy 10 pairs of jeans, that ounce should buy me 10 pairs of jeans in a semi-SHTF scenario.
However, I disagree with his $50,000 shotgun comment. A collectible item (apartements, dolls, guns, etc) is only worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. Otherwise, it sells for it's actual utility value (look at Beanie Babies a while back, now they fetch the $4 that they should be worth).
Basically, in a true SHTF scenario, your $50,000 shotgun would be worth (in barter) about the same as a Mossberg 500 pump. (or maybe even less!) It would revert to intrinsic value, which is a shotgun.
theotherwaldo
Member
This isn't the time to buy gold - this is the time to buy a gold pan!
-And you guys that are arguing about buying guns. It sounds like you buy retail!
You'll never add much value by paying retail prices on something that is already a hot commodity. Value is added when you find something that's under-appreciated, pay a minimal price, and then hold your purchase until it becomes appreciated.
Admittedly, there is an element of chance and a lot of judgment and research involved in this approach, but, hey, nothing's perfect.
And at least you get to shoot some very different guns with your children and grandchildren - and then leave them something solid along with the memories.
-And you guys that are arguing about buying guns. It sounds like you buy retail!
You'll never add much value by paying retail prices on something that is already a hot commodity. Value is added when you find something that's under-appreciated, pay a minimal price, and then hold your purchase until it becomes appreciated.
Admittedly, there is an element of chance and a lot of judgment and research involved in this approach, but, hey, nothing's perfect.
And at least you get to shoot some very different guns with your children and grandchildren - and then leave them something solid along with the memories.
GunsAmerica Fan
Member
In a worldwide collapse there would be no wealth retention by anyone with anything. If we are on the brink of something unprecedented in the modern world, I'd rather have a pile of guns than a pile of gold (provided there is ammo with them as I explained in my article).
And as for the high grade guns, you are mostly speaking from inexperience with high grade guns. As I have explained previously in this thread, the high grade market is worldwide, not just the US like beanie babies and Chamilia bracelets. If the US severely depresses most likely most of europe will too, but there will still be plenty of old money who will be unaffected. With gold you pay a broker fee coming and going when you are talking real numbers. With a 50k shotgun you just buy it, then sell it. Generally high grade guns, like high grade jewelry, are unaffected by serious downturns. Certain engravers and manufacturers and grades of walnut even just never are devalued. We don't generally talk about end of the world stuff on this board and I think it devalues the OP and this continuing discussion about safe and profitable investing. My position on that was very clear in the article.
And as for the high grade guns, you are mostly speaking from inexperience with high grade guns. As I have explained previously in this thread, the high grade market is worldwide, not just the US like beanie babies and Chamilia bracelets. If the US severely depresses most likely most of europe will too, but there will still be plenty of old money who will be unaffected. With gold you pay a broker fee coming and going when you are talking real numbers. With a 50k shotgun you just buy it, then sell it. Generally high grade guns, like high grade jewelry, are unaffected by serious downturns. Certain engravers and manufacturers and grades of walnut even just never are devalued. We don't generally talk about end of the world stuff on this board and I think it devalues the OP and this continuing discussion about safe and profitable investing. My position on that was very clear in the article.
My $790/oz Au
Is now worth $1428/oz, IF & when I sell. I can go to 250 places within an hour of here and sell it. No broker-fee, no questions. Walk in, get cash, walk out. Where could I sell a $50000 shotty, and how would I get there? Ship the gun?! Insure it? How? What if USPS is down for "reorganization"?? If I wanted to shift 100 oz. of my Au, I still would not incur any fees: I would laterally shift the Au into Ag, which is not such a bad idea. Au seems at a top, and Ag is still gathering up steam. My latest "investment" is 20000 rds 5.56 NATO 65gr @ $0.315 per rd. Thank you, Guns America !!
Is now worth $1428/oz, IF & when I sell. I can go to 250 places within an hour of here and sell it. No broker-fee, no questions. Walk in, get cash, walk out. Where could I sell a $50000 shotty, and how would I get there? Ship the gun?! Insure it? How? What if USPS is down for "reorganization"?? If I wanted to shift 100 oz. of my Au, I still would not incur any fees: I would laterally shift the Au into Ag, which is not such a bad idea. Au seems at a top, and Ag is still gathering up steam. My latest "investment" is 20000 rds 5.56 NATO 65gr @ $0.315 per rd. Thank you, Guns America !!
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leadcounsel
member
Good for you. The $120 SKSs I bought a few years ago are now worth twice that. We both doubled our money. However, mine have the utility of self defense and putting food on the table if ever needed. And they are worth twice as much. What has gold done other than increase invalue?
And your point is...?
My point is that gold is suckers bet right now. If I were you I'd sell it at a high. It's being driven up by the commondities markets for suckers to continue to buy at historic heights and then the bubble will burst after those 'in the know' get out at the top. HHmmmm... where have we seen this before... internet bubble... housing bubble... stock market bubble... when gold falls it'll fall fast...
That is the most hilariously bad investment advice I have ever heard.
Yeah, thats why my financial advisor has a portfolio littered with guns.
Diversify he says, 10% English Doubles, 30% EBR's, 10% Milsurps, 40% Colt DA Revolvers, and 10% BB guns.
You didn't understand what I was saying. Simply put, precious metals and gems have a value determined in a number of different ways, whether as a vehicle for stabilizing a financial portfolio, or value garnered from real world demand driven by industry. The guns YOU believe have value hold very little interest for a large prtion of the population, thus making them difficult to liquidate at a profit when compared to other investments. Also factor in the fact that "collectible" guns fall in and out of fashion very quickly. I know of a couple gentlemen sitting on Winchester commemoratives that they just knew were going to fund their retirement....bad idea.
uhh.....so which is it? How do you plan on selling your high grade double to some chap in Great Britain, if by a very small chance you actually are able to even find a buyer for your VERY niche market firearm??
Another important point is actual physical security of your investments. My stocks, and etf's don't need to be kept in a safe and are not exposed to possible fire, theft, flooding, etc.
There are multitudes of other investments if you are scared of gold, inverse etf's, stocks, and many more. It doesn't have to be a choice between gold and a plywood box of SKS's.
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GunsAmerica Fan
Member
Which is why I referred to a 6,000 word article on the subject at the beginning of this thread...
There is no "so which is it." I don't consider an end of the world scenario to be realistic and if it is, it really doesn't matter what you are invested in. Nothing is portable and can be eaten. Guns could be easily bartered for what can be eaten in that situation, and like another said, a mossberg 500 is equally as valueable as a high grade shotgun.
But if hard times are coming for the US and other western countries, most likely it will not be entirely worldwide, and old money in the US and Europe, etc. will endure.
If you read the article you will see my explanation that high grade guns are in a different class than whimsical collectibles, including the "franklin mint" type of collectibles like the winchester collectibles. I bet that guy's name with them wasn't Jim Supica lol. Ignorant people do ignorant things, bless their hearts lol. This isn't what we are talking about here.
Good luck with the stocks though. The believers are reaching for a reason to believe and the election may just have been it. But eventually the world is going to realize that we don't make anything here anymore and grow little more than corn. Our credit is going to run out. Trump was on Fox this afternoon (I have it on XM in the car) and said what I have said for a decade. We all love the cheap chinese crap, but the imbalance in trade is going to destroy our country if we don't start taxing chinese imports.
There is no "so which is it." I don't consider an end of the world scenario to be realistic and if it is, it really doesn't matter what you are invested in. Nothing is portable and can be eaten. Guns could be easily bartered for what can be eaten in that situation, and like another said, a mossberg 500 is equally as valueable as a high grade shotgun.
But if hard times are coming for the US and other western countries, most likely it will not be entirely worldwide, and old money in the US and Europe, etc. will endure.
If you read the article you will see my explanation that high grade guns are in a different class than whimsical collectibles, including the "franklin mint" type of collectibles like the winchester collectibles. I bet that guy's name with them wasn't Jim Supica lol. Ignorant people do ignorant things, bless their hearts lol. This isn't what we are talking about here.
Good luck with the stocks though.
The believers are reaching for a reason to believe and the election may just have been it. But eventually the world is going to realize that we don't make anything here anymore and grow little more than corn. Our credit is going to run out. Trump was on Fox this afternoon (I have it on XM in the car) and said what I have said for a decade. We all love the cheap chinese crap, but the imbalance in trade is going to destroy our country if we don't start taxing chinese imports.- Status
