Well based on Sam1911's verifiable numbers I assume you'd like to retract that statement?
Too much safety?
- Thread starter gdcpony
- Start date
- Status
Rusty Shackleford
Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2010
- Messages
- 197
The OP is obviously an adult that is aware of the risks and consequences of his decision. He also knows his kids better than any of us do. It's his house, his guns, his kids. Unless you are his neighbor and are worried about his kids shooting you through the walls, we shouldn't get preachy with him. He seems to have acknowledged the risk and accepted it.
I will admit that when I have kids, they will eventually be given their own guns to keep in their rooms as soon as I think they are responsible enough for it. On the other hand, I do know how much trouble boys can get into as soon as they have some company around to give them dumb ideas.
The bolts will be locked up when friends are around at the very least. That's just my personal decision with my personal comfort level of the risk involved. You guys make your own choices.
I will admit that when I have kids, they will eventually be given their own guns to keep in their rooms as soon as I think they are responsible enough for it. On the other hand, I do know how much trouble boys can get into as soon as they have some company around to give them dumb ideas.
The bolts will be locked up when friends are around at the very least. That's just my personal decision with my personal comfort level of the risk involved. You guys make your own choices.
gbw
Member
No need, the two things really don't have much to do with each other.
If you choose to kill yourself eating too much fat you have time to educate yourself, to learn, to change your behavior if you wish. Your choice.
If someone pulls the trigger on a gun and it's pointed at you, you have time for nothing. Your time is up.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
The point is that it was previously stated that more people die from ingesting fatty foods than die from gun shots.
This statement was contested by M-Cameron and then demonstrated to be clearly false when Sam1911 posted actual statistics.
Insofar as there is a public perception that guns are a statistically significant source of deaths in the United States, drawing comparisons between gun deaths and other, much more statistically likely forms of expiring goes a long way in demonstrating that most guns are handled in a manner that is safe and responsible, and that most people would be much better off being concerned about the health risks of what they eat rather than worrying about getting shot.
auschip
Member
Mortality rate of a GSW is 13%, so 87% of the time you have more time.
gbw
Member
Small consolation, you're gonna get shot. And those odds aren't that great.
I got the point, of course, and true for sure, but this is a gun forum. To me the argument is a distraction and not too relevant.
I got the point, of course, and true for sure, but this is a gun forum. To me the argument is a distraction and not too relevant.
Last edited:
I totally respect how the OP is approaching gun safety with his children. I too came from an environment where a gun was treated with respect, yet considered a common day item that required careful handling, just like axes and chainsaws. That which is forbidden becomes an irresistible lure for mischief to a youngster. Most the trouble I ever got into resulted from this.
Yet something bothers me here. Children need to be taught a natural regimen of safety in handling guns. Perhaps this should include safe storage and access. It might be better to teach the children to store guns in a family safe or locked gun cabinet. It's not a matter of trust, it's simply good practice.
Yet something bothers me here. Children need to be taught a natural regimen of safety in handling guns. Perhaps this should include safe storage and access. It might be better to teach the children to store guns in a family safe or locked gun cabinet. It's not a matter of trust, it's simply good practice.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
This mirrors my approach.
My kids were pulling triggers on AKs when they were 3 years old. My daughter was shooting a .44 revolver at 7. My kids have seen guns, hundreds of guns, their entire lives. They have no interest in goofing around with them. They can have access to them anytime they are interested. They are as much a part of their lives as is the car or the cat! I've never seen one of them make a single fasle move with a firearm, and darned few false moves with a stick they're pretending is a toy gun.
However, these are my guns (even those that are "theirs) and they are MY responsibility. I can't ask a young child to hold the mantle of responsibility over life and death of themselves, their family members, or someone else. Though they would make no mistake for all the world, it's just too much responsibility. They need time and a very real level of parental cushioning to keep them from adult level repurcussions for actions (including accidents) that their little brains are not fully capable of weighing. That is what childhood is for. A chance to practice and prepare for having to handle adult responsibilities without having to suffer your whole life with the consequences of that learning process.
Further, I don't leave my guns out and about. If it isn't in use or on my person, it is secured one way or another. That's the rule -- for many, MANY reasons. So, if I don't leave my guns lying around or stored unsecured, why would I ever let someone I am responsible to guide and protect do less?
gbw
Member
Secured. Excellent.
All of us come from such different backgrounds. I'm only 52 but my dad was 47 when I was born so the 100th anniversary of his birth is coming up in five months. He grew up on an 80 acre farm during the depression and spent time working some pretty rough jobs, like the East Texas oil fields and living in company housing working for a mill. For as long as I can remember he slept with a revolver under the mattress, even in our little suburban house in the good neighborhood. Whenever we went back to his ancestral home to visit the grandparents we stayed in the old farmhouse that still lacked indoor plumbing. There was a shotgun behind my grandmother's door and a .22 rifle over the fireplace. That's just the way things were, those WERE the proper places to store those weapons. I learned firearm safety on the farm then I was given a Daisy BB gun to earn trust. By the time I was 9 or 10 I was trusted with the .22 single shot rifle and they didn't follow me around in the woods to make sure I wasn't doing anything stupid with it. It's just the way of life back in the woods. I knew darn well not to touch my dad's revolver under the bed, I honestly couldn't even tell you if it was loaded or not because I never pulled it out to look at it during the 22 years I lived with them. I have no doubt that it was loaded but I had no reason to handle it to find out. Guns were tools and I didn't mess with the tools unless I needed one to solve a problem I had, just like the tools in his Snap-On tool chest.
Of course, the state where I lived granted Learner's Driving Permits to 14 year olds and full, unrestricted licenses to 15 year olds. My parents also allowed me to build my first car from a pile of parts when I was 16 and my first racing Stock Car when I was 18. I don't think I was unusually responsible, I just had a lot of good experience and good examples to follow.
Of course, the state where I lived granted Learner's Driving Permits to 14 year olds and full, unrestricted licenses to 15 year olds. My parents also allowed me to build my first car from a pile of parts when I was 16 and my first racing Stock Car when I was 18. I don't think I was unusually responsible, I just had a lot of good experience and good examples to follow.
Well said, Sam, and I agree.Sam1911 said:
Also consider --
Safety is a good thing. But I think we put too much emphasis on trying to achieve safety by removing access to things that can be dangerous or by not doing things that might be dangerous. So we can reach perfect safety by sitting still in the cold (heaters and fires are dangerous) and dark (because electricity and candles are dangerous) until we starve to death (because eating is dangerous -- cholesterol, calories, choking, etc.).
Instead, we should be learning how to handle potentially dangerous things in a safe manner (like good, safe gun handling) and how to do things well (like learning to be a skillful driver).
There can certainly be too much safety when it's a matter of constricting our lives by removing sources of danger. But there can't be too much safety when it comes to learning how to use things and do things safely.
Life is a hazardous activity, and the world in not a safe place in which to play. We really can't idiot proof life or the world, but we can try to avoid being idiots.
gdcpony
Member
You make a good point. We do have a storage rule in our house. Each weapon has its place. My AR is locked in it the cabinet with one five round mag. My shotgun goes beside my wife's side of the bed with 1-#7 shot shell, 1-#4 shot shell, and 2 slugs (I no crap have a sword under my side instead of the proverbial bat). My .257 hangs above the fireplace with the bolt open, and its rounds are locked in the bottom of the cabinet. My daughters' rifles are stored in the racks they have with actions open. Their bows sit in the top place (most used anyways). My oldest keeps her limited supply of ammo locked in the bottom of her rack. My younger daughter doesn't get any. Hers is locked in the main cabinet.
My son is about to turn five and may soon get his first BB gun. The other change would be that him turning five is when we agreed I could once again bring a handgun into the house. I have yet to decide how to approach that. I am thinking hard though.
I have found the best way to deal with curiosity in guests (kids) to be a simple phone call. "Can Adeline shoot with my daughter? Kenzie wants to show her her new rifle. Yeah, I'll be right beside them."
Luckily I still live in a place where that is not too unusual a request. Once they have been satisfied, they tend to be cooperative with rules. After all, breaking one means no more fun. If they give me a bad feeling, I secure the weapons from being functional. Pulling the bolt is easy, and a single shot come apart quick.
Last edited:
gbw
Member
In general, I'd agree that as adults we do - you gotta live life. But we're talking children and access to guns. For me it's hard to see 'over-safe' where keeping unsupervised kids separated from guns is involved. Teach them respect and train them for sure. But lock up the guns when you're not around.
Might want to look at the V-Line or similar small, very fast access lock-boxes. I use them. Modify if necessary so that they cannot be closed unless they are also locked.
True, but there's another way to look at this. By allowing access to guns only under supervision, you're not really removing access. You're conditioning access -- the kid has access, but only when you're there to supervise.
And supervised access is how children will learn to be safe with guns. It'll be your job to decide how well they've been learning the lesson.
gdcpony
Member
Here's a funny add on:
My wife has said that the kids have not used any of their guns since I have been gone or even asked to save for my oldest going out deer hunting with her grandfather this year. She has put them away in the cabinet, not for safety, but because they were getting dusty. I hope I don't lose out to video games by the time I get back.
My wife has said that the kids have not used any of their guns since I have been gone or even asked to save for my oldest going out deer hunting with her grandfather this year. She has put them away in the cabinet, not for safety, but because they were getting dusty. I hope I don't lose out to video games by the time I get back.
gbw
Member
Yes sir. That is exactly the condition I want. Its a kid and a gun. If you're advocating unsupervised access for children to guns, however you slice, dice, look at, or package it, then we disagree. Where the line is drawn is of course situation dependent - but if I'm going to err I'd prefer it be on the high end.
gdcpony
Member
That is a recipe for a kid to sneak in for what you have denied them. We all did as kids. My girls have only to ask. I caveat this with the fact that they had to prove themselves to get to that point. I don't preach safety to anyone I am teaching. I preach proper shooting which is safe. A big difference.
Last spring Kenzie came up and asked me if I was going to shoot a groundhog in the backyard. I went and grabbed couple rounds tossed them to her and told her I want it for dinner. We ate it in a stew with potatoes and carrots.
She gave me back the left over round and asked me to clear her rifle before she put it away. I had to say nothing to her. Had I watched it might have gone the same, but now she knows that she has earned a trust that I don't even have for some of my fellow Marines. She knows she can keep it simply by being a good shot which inherently, because of the way I teach, it a safe one.
You sound like one hell of a good dad, and congrats on some good kids.
gbw
Member
The idea is to make sneaking in a practical impossibility insofar as possible, along with all of the training and teaching you so rightfully emphasize. I think you're a very good father. (Now somebody is gonna yap that no method to secure is perfect. True. So what. That is no excuse for not securing them. )
At the end of it all, they're still kids, subject to kid goof-ups. But not with access to guns.
Mine as well. Permission is never denied, unless for some practical reason. The difference is that mine don't have access unless I'm there - they know it and they know why (and not only because they are children). To the extent yours do, well, then we disagree, and I pray that you nor anyone else ever has learn otherwise.
At the end of it all, they're still kids, subject to kid goof-ups. But not with access to guns.
Mine as well. Permission is never denied, unless for some practical reason. The difference is that mine don't have access unless I'm there - they know it and they know why (and not only because they are children). To the extent yours do, well, then we disagree, and I pray that you nor anyone else ever has learn otherwise.
Sevenfaces
Member
While I will teach my children gun safety and grind it into their minds, I would not keep weapons loaded or not, in a place they could obtain them. Thats my choice, and yours is yours. I don't think any good could come from such an arrangement.
Mountainman38
Member
I agree completely.
Agree again.
I definitely didn't say that. I said guns were originally created to be used for killing -- and that's a big difference. I'm very happy that we have guns nowadays, and that they're used for a variety of reasons besides killing people. They are, however, very good at killing people, which makes them much different than a power say or a toaster oven.
I think you're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist. To say you have to kill something so something may live doesn't change the fact that you may have to kill something. I don't really care -- just don't expect me to get onboard with the idea that guns are no threat because they only save lives.
When I talk to people about guns, I don't spend a huge amount of time talking about safety. Unless I'm showing someone how to shoot, or they were to ask me a question on proper gun handling, gun safety doesn't really come up much.
I have one friend (wife's best friend) who has/had a strong aversion to guns. When my wife mentioned that I carry a gun, her friend made it a point to say that I wasn't to bring my gun into her house when we visited. I didn't make a big deal out of it, but when the conversation at one point turned to self-defense I mentioned how a firearm was a very good idea to have, given proper training.
Part of proper training is gun safety, so it's something that those who know you have a gun should know you practice. Letting someone know that I'm very careful about gun handling definitely helps calm their fears, and rightly so. As you mentioned, there are quite a few people who shouldn't have guns, as they do stupid/dangerous things with them that could get them (or worse, someone else) hurt.
Guns ARE dangerous! Why else would we be so careful with how we handle them?! If some guy next to you slammed a magazine home in his pistol, racked a round into the chamber, and started pointing his gun at various people, would you just smile and laugh? No, you'd either hit the deck, or his thick head!
If the same guy picked up a pencil and did the same thing, obviously you wouldn't care. Guns have a terrific ability to do damage with almost no effort, and should be respected as such. To do otherwise would be foolish -- and on this I think we agree. So why is it hard to accept that guns are actually dangerous?
This is where you lose me. Stressing how careful we are doesn't alert people to the fact that guns are dangerous -- as you pointed out, they already know that. What it does is let them know that we are aware of that danger, and have trained ourselves to use them in such a way as to minimize that danger, while maximizing the benefit of carrying a gun.
This is kind of a non sequiter. Yep, driving in a car can be dangerous. Drivers should be aware of this, and train to minimize the danger. How does this reflect on the need for gun safety?
I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong -- your experience and perceptions differ from mine (except the part about the last perfect person -- there we're in accord). I will say that after reading story after story after story about stupid mistakes and negligent discharges, that they came from the operator NOT thinking about proper gun handling. "I dropped the magazine, but the doorbell rang before I ejected the cartridge. When I came back and saw the magazine on the bed, I thought I'd emptied all the shells. What a surprise when the gun went off in my hand!" (Yes, this is from a thread here on THR.)
After I come home and remove my Glock from it's holster, I keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, drop the magazine, then rack the slide to eject the shell. I lock the slide open, and visually check for a round. When I see there's no round in there, I stick my finger in the end of the barrel, just to make sure. The whole time I'm thinking about where the bullet could go if I accidentally fired my gun, and what exactly it is that I'm doing.
Being VERY respectful of what you have keeps you from getting complacent, which is what I think can happen if you just count on your training/instinct to do everything properly, and don't actually think about each step.
No, it's not fact -- it's semantics. If you are contending that there's no need to be concerned about dangerous objects, tell me which you'd rather face -- a desperate drug addict looking to score who wants what you have armed with a gun, or armed with a Red Ryder. Yeah, I'd take the BB gun guy every time. The Daisy won't kill me if the guy pulls the trigger, but the gun will. Big difference, and respect should be accorded as such.
Safety becomes ingrained, even in those who have been taught well, by keeping it in mind and practicing it. Taking class after class until you're perfect doesn't work too well, but taking care to learn the fundamentals, keeping them in mind, and practicing them, does.
Mountainman38
Member
I used to think this, but I've seen too many incredibly stupid and downright dangerous things done by people to figure they should be left to figure things out themselves. Do you really want one of your kids friends to figure out how your AR works by sticking a full magazine in it, and then start racking/pulling/pushing on things to see how it works?
Back in college I went with some friends on a trip to Mammoth Mountain. Sitting around the condo we started talking about our various guns, and soon what we'd brought with us was getting passed around. I had a Colt .22 New Frontier, which a buddy of mine wanted to look at. I always kept my guns loaded, since they wouldn't do me much good if they weren't, and figured that was what another gun owner would expect.
Mike wanted to see my gun, so I handed it to him carefully. He started waving it around to see different parts of it, then wanted to see how the cocking mechanism worked by pulling the hammer back. I was almost too stunned to say something, but managed to yell at him to not pull the hammer back. Nothing happened, but it sure could have -- because I thought he could figure out the safe way to handle a gun on his own.
Now I always clear any weapon someone wants to look at, no matter what their qualifications are.
Assuming someone will figure out a dangerous tool on their own sure doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
NavyLCDR
member
There are things and people in this world that present much more danger to the children than guns that they respect and know how to use.
gdcpony
Member
Sorry I misunderstood. However, Should you ask me to "kill" in my home I am likely to grab a bow. It is just as lethal in my hands as a 1911. I am just more accurate with it. So should I lock it up too? I practice swordsmanship so theme too? Once you deem something as "dangerous" should you lock it away and treat it with extreme paranoia or simply learn to use it properly if you wish to continue to have it? Same goes for a bike, car (which have killed more of my relatives than guns), and many of the tools we use in daily life.
Ah the distinction is in the intent. Yesterday my M-4 was aimed in. What was my intent had I had to pull the trigger? Not defense. I was in an armored vehicle and the target had an AK. there was no real threat. Not food. I don't lean towards cannibalism. Not recreation as I don't find that kind of shooting fun. In the end the guy was just an armed bystander, but had he twitched the wrong way... The intent would have been KILLING the enemy. In this respect you have it right.
Me out with my kids plinking cans in the yard have no intent to kill. Even when hunting, our true intent is either relaxation, or food. Then our weapons our tools for that purpose. It is my personal belief- and you can disagree should you choose- that no on should consider a weapon a tool intended for killing. It- like a thousand other things around my house- can be used for that, but that is not the intent behind them. I would not own them if that were the case.
You and I are not so far apart. Do not think the I don't want someone to be safe while shooting. I just teach in such a way that being safe is just a part of each shot, group, or session. It is inherent to the operation, not a separate step. After all, the guy you mention is not only violating your safety rules, he is also not using the item properly. If he were none of that would have happened. But say it was a chainsaw? A knife? And, yes, even that pencil. He is still not using it right and THAT is what is wrong.
Just like EOD handling something that may or may not explode at anytime. That is how allot of people perceive our weapons. And we feed into it. By stressing how safe we are we give them a reason to fear. Why not instead just talk about how easy it is to learn to hit your target? Should they wish to learn then teach them that part. Why? Because if you teach them properly, then by the time they are hitting their target they will be safe- or at least have a good start. Build on their shooting skills from there and if you are ingraining safety in their shooting, we will both arrive at the same end.
Um I was making a point on irony. Because they are in more danger right then than they were standing before a decent person with a gun. (At least you seem like a decent person). Statistically speaking of course.
I forgive the fact that you shoot a Glock (JK my brother likes those things too). I go through the same -or similar- steps. It just is not thought about. Just like taking off your clothes before getting into the shower. It is jut part of it. For us it is because ammo belongs somewhere, stored in it's box, mag, ect. Part of putting stuff away. Same result different method of instruction and thought.
They are both guns to me. And I would treat the SITUATION as dangerous even if he was unarmed.
Class after class? No not really. If I have to keep something in mind I WILL forget it. Trust me and ask my wife. But she'll tell you in the next breath that if it is habit, I can't forget it. Both things annoy her to no end. And my kids are just like me for some reason.
Ok I think this guy needed some of the "How to use this item properly" course first. If it came to that kind of thing, then not only a reminder, but a smack upside the head is in order.
My kids and I- Heck even Ronnie and I to this day- transfer weapons between us with actions open. Ronnie and I may have a bolt gun loaded if we still have some shooting to do, but the action is open.
If you and I shot together and you handed me your Glock (I guess I'd have to let you use a real pistol-1911- too) and it wasn't open, I would immediately open it for a check. Marines point this out to me all the time when we are stacking weapons or such. To be honest I don't think about it then either till they remind me.
My kids had to be taught to do this as I was. It was taught not as a safety item, but as checking out the firearm before shooting or when finished with it. Habitual and safe, but not because it is safe. Because it is a part of shooting and using any item to check it first.
Maybe it just seems like semantics to you, but it is a very real distinction to me.
Last edited:
gdcpony
Member
dbl post sorry dang foreign servers
Last edited:
- Status
