i don't believe a man should hit a women unless its to protect another women or a child. i would not have drawn my weapon but would have done what was necessary to protect my family. hopefully after stopping the main thert the others would be demotivated and stop their aggression.
Pregnant couple attacked by 5 girls on bus
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After viewing the video I have just a couple of observations.
First is that the young man showed remarkable restraint and maturity in the way he handled things overall. And except in one regard he kept overall control of the situation at all times. I would have recovered the ipod first, and immediately moved my lady forward, and blocked any advance on her.
In the events that transpired I would have not allowed the rifling of my lady's pockets and I would have recovered all property taken on the spot, by force. Overwhelming force, fast, decisive, and striking blows not being required.
These were juveniles, and the young man was evidently able to fend off all of them at once if needed. He did make the mistake, a serious one, of turning his back on them, and fortunately none of the girls took advantage of this with any type of weapon.
The appearence of a weapon would have changed things; making distance would then be a priority. There are usually plenty of impromtu weapons on a bus, or objects that can be used to effectively rebuff a knife wielding juvenile female of the stature seen here. Umbrellas, walking canes, two-wheeled "dolly" type shopping bags etc. At the front of all buses I have seen there is usually a large fire extinguisher.
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Je Suis Prest
First is that the young man showed remarkable restraint and maturity in the way he handled things overall. And except in one regard he kept overall control of the situation at all times. I would have recovered the ipod first, and immediately moved my lady forward, and blocked any advance on her.
In the events that transpired I would have not allowed the rifling of my lady's pockets and I would have recovered all property taken on the spot, by force. Overwhelming force, fast, decisive, and striking blows not being required.
These were juveniles, and the young man was evidently able to fend off all of them at once if needed. He did make the mistake, a serious one, of turning his back on them, and fortunately none of the girls took advantage of this with any type of weapon.
The appearence of a weapon would have changed things; making distance would then be a priority. There are usually plenty of impromtu weapons on a bus, or objects that can be used to effectively rebuff a knife wielding juvenile female of the stature seen here. Umbrellas, walking canes, two-wheeled "dolly" type shopping bags etc. At the front of all buses I have seen there is usually a large fire extinguisher.
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Je Suis Prest
Dnaltrop
Member
5 on one IS the threat of lethal force, in and of itself.
Unless you've been at the center of attention of a similar group bent on harming you, you might not get it.
IF they had been armed, it would have only changed things on surface. The weapon is the human will to harm another Person for their own gain, and anyone can arm themselves with a thought.
Unless you've been at the center of attention of a similar group bent on harming you, you might not get it.
IF they had been armed, it would have only changed things on surface. The weapon is the human will to harm another Person for their own gain, and anyone can arm themselves with a thought.
rfwobbly
Member
Really tough situation. Thanks for posting it. Highly thought provoking.
Someone asked about the CS over-spray. My understanding is that the Kimber CS module ( THR review here) puts out a stream of sticky gel, very close to Cheese Whiz or Silly String. You only get 2 shots, but it may have been the ultimate defensive weapon in this scenario. After the first 2 attackers were taken out, you could have probably held the other 3 at bay.
This is truly what's so scary about public transit. Close quarters and lots of innocents.
Someone asked about the CS over-spray. My understanding is that the Kimber CS module ( THR review here) puts out a stream of sticky gel, very close to Cheese Whiz or Silly String. You only get 2 shots, but it may have been the ultimate defensive weapon in this scenario. After the first 2 attackers were taken out, you could have probably held the other 3 at bay.
This is truly what's so scary about public transit. Close quarters and lots of innocents.
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sidheshooter
Member
That's a good point. The way I see it, any physical altercation just became a cage fight. Except you can move around in a cage, and there are no innocents.
A crowded bus floor that's on the move is not a good place to defend from.
I had thought about pepper foam, but don't have any experience with the stuff. Sounds good on paper; so, frankly, does a taser of some sort. When the lead dog started kicking, that might have been a good time for a short dose of electro shock therapy... but I don't know a lot about contact use of taser-like products either.
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JTHunter
Member
Considering what has been posted here about the B/F's "restraint", what are your feelings about another passenger in this situation "wading in" and doing a little "head-knocking"? After all, black eyes and split lips make ID's of the perps easier.
alohachris
Member
I read the full article and nowhere did I see the boyfriend accused of theft.
For those of us who have had the pleasure, scumbags on the street will steal from you, and if confronted will proclaim loudly that "That's mine" or "He stole it from me!" to discourage people from getting involved and/or create confusion for the police if they arrive. Typical wolf-pack robbery on the train/bus. Surround, distract & attack. They had it planned out before they got on the bus and formed a semicircle around the mark. I probably would have had the GF get behind me and tell her to move to the front of the bus. Retrieve property. Smash anyone who puts hands on me.
A firearm in that situation is going to become a retention issue, quick, but if one of them has a blade, you in deep doo-doo. Bad situation all around.
It has been my experience throughout the years that unanswered physical force ENCOURAGES and EMBOLDENS the perpetrator of said force. Citizens that are capable of immediately ending violent attacks should do so imo.
Most groups have a "physical" leader, either formal or informal, that can influence the behavior of the group as a whole, directly or not. When the "physical leader" resorts to force, and is immediately shut down by greater force, this has a dampening effect on the other members of the group because their "big gun" proved to be ineffective. The rest generally become reluctant to engage in physical force.
However, should the "force leader" be met with little to NO resistance, this tends to embolden the actions of the group, and can lead to force beyond the span of control / intent of the group.
Being able to identify and neutralize these types of individuals can go a long way to checking the actions of a potentially violent and lethal group of individuals. The kid in the video did not do it, and his lack of action emboldened not only the initial attacker, but the group as a whole. Had the kid applied a well placed throat punch to the FIRST individual that attacked him, the rest of those females would not have dared to touch him, or his girlfriend, further.
It is 2010, almost 2011. The whole "don't hit a female" / honor thing is DEAD. Females need to learn what smart males learn by the age of 10, and that is, if you intend on resorting to violence, you better have the ability to back it up, or you WILL get your arse kicked. NO pass for violence, for either male OR female. THAT'S equality.
tasco 74
Member
yep in such a mess with a pregnant mate the blade would come out and there would be at least a couple of wounded bleeding bit(hes.......................
03Shadowbob
Member
Whether my girlfriend, wife or someone I didn't know...5 hoodrats on 1 pregnant girl and I am stepping in regardless of whatever happened to start the scuffle. As far as I see it, that unborn baby did nothing to jeopardize his/her life and I am fighting for that one.
As far as taking out teenage girls, strong,solid sternum punches followed by one on the bridge and the fight will leave them quickly especially in that funnel type situation.
As far as taking out teenage girls, strong,solid sternum punches followed by one on the bridge and the fight will leave them quickly especially in that funnel type situation.
When I was growing up my father had the "don't hit girls rule." Then he realized that my little sister was taking advantage of it, and changed it to the, "Don't hit girls, but if they can dish it out they can take it" rule. That changed my sister's tactics. I mean she was still my little sister, and had to annoy me, but she quit hitting me the first time she did so, I defended myself, and she was the one that got in trouble.
Same thing, if you don't want to pay the piper don't call the tune. You attack me, and mine, and you get what you've asked for! Regardless of native language, color, sexual orientation, or gender.
Same thing, if you don't want to pay the piper don't call the tune. You attack me, and mine, and you get what you've asked for! Regardless of native language, color, sexual orientation, or gender.
One poster has claimed that the REAL STORY is that the gang of 5 girls was trying to reclaim a stolen iPod.
If that's the case, let this be a lesson to any would-be Good Samaritans - interfering in seemingly clear-cut scenarios like this could leave you on the wrong side of the law as well.
It's certainly a solid argument for staying out of any conflict that doesn't directly involve you or your own.
If that's the case, let this be a lesson to any would-be Good Samaritans - interfering in seemingly clear-cut scenarios like this could leave you on the wrong side of the law as well.
It's certainly a solid argument for staying out of any conflict that doesn't directly involve you or your own.
macadore
Member
Call 911 while 5 people are beating on you? That just doesn't work for me. A large padlock in your fist with the shank slipped over your middle finger works better.
The men not hitting a girl ethic is born from a time when a woman was assumed to have been a lady. These girls were not ladies, and still it would be a bad circumstance for a man to be in, not wanting to break that traditional ethic. Still, AFAIC, if 5 teenage girls attacked my pregnant wife, I consider that a life threatening situation, if not for me, at least for my unborn child. One hit is all it would take to kill that child and devastate the mother for a very long time.
Forming a human shield might be appropriate to try, but if they persist violently, it is time to forget the traditional ethic and keep those girls away from your wife.
Forming a human shield might be appropriate to try, but if they persist violently, it is time to forget the traditional ethic and keep those girls away from your wife.
Evergreen
Member
How does the old saying go, something: "If she comes as a man, she is gonna get treated as a man." And, you know that means a thumpin, if necessary. Not many ladies left these days. I am all for restraint, but if another man/woman tries to hurt my wife or child, I will do whatever is necessary to stop that.
However, just watching this video, I will say, had these girls did this to me, they would all be laying on the floor gasping for air. Five girls against one guy, seems like a fair fight? Who is to say that none of these girls are armed? The minute they hit the man's wife in the face, they committed a felony and you even have legal justification to you use lethal force. Am I wrong about this? Or does this lethal force law only apply to men who hit people in the face? I would of course want to avoid lethal force at all costs, but ganging up on a pregnant woman is crossing the line. How come women always get a free ride?
However, just watching this video, I will say, had these girls did this to me, they would all be laying on the floor gasping for air. Five girls against one guy, seems like a fair fight? Who is to say that none of these girls are armed? The minute they hit the man's wife in the face, they committed a felony and you even have legal justification to you use lethal force. Am I wrong about this? Or does this lethal force law only apply to men who hit people in the face? I would of course want to avoid lethal force at all costs, but ganging up on a pregnant woman is crossing the line. How come women always get a free ride?
Men hitting woman blaa blaa blaa. Irrelivent.
You know when this kind of thing pops up in the forum I always am worried by the comments of if one should draw their gun. This so obviously NOT that situation is shocks me people would wonder.....
Are there any weapons visible? NO.
Fist of all I see only 2 of the 5 girls being the trouble makers and getting physical. Almost being more annoying then a true threat, as girls often learn they can do to guys and get away with. The other three seem to be holding back the trouble makers mostly or talking about the stolen iphone.
The physical aspect of this was one step past a slap fight. Really very low grade. The DA would not even be interested in following up on this it being such a small blip on their radar.
The punishment of taking their bus pass for a year seems fitting. Obviously they are living in a large city, bus is how young urban people get around. Is like having your drivers license taken from you for a year. A real pain in the butt.
Evergreen I don't know where you live, but hitting a person in the face (with you hand) is not a felony here or any justified reason to use lethal force. Doing so would result in prison time for sure.
You know when this kind of thing pops up in the forum I always am worried by the comments of if one should draw their gun. This so obviously NOT that situation is shocks me people would wonder.....
Are there any weapons visible? NO.Fist of all I see only 2 of the 5 girls being the trouble makers and getting physical. Almost being more annoying then a true threat, as girls often learn they can do to guys and get away with. The other three seem to be holding back the trouble makers mostly or talking about the stolen iphone.
The physical aspect of this was one step past a slap fight. Really very low grade. The DA would not even be interested in following up on this it being such a small blip on their radar.
The punishment of taking their bus pass for a year seems fitting. Obviously they are living in a large city, bus is how young urban people get around. Is like having your drivers license taken from you for a year. A real pain in the butt.
Evergreen I don't know where you live, but hitting a person in the face (with you hand) is not a felony here or any justified reason to use lethal force. Doing so would result in prison time for sure.
killchain
Member
This is why I refuse to take public transit unless I absolutely have to.
This is King County's fabulous public transit system.
And let it be known, anyone lays a hand on me or my kin is looking to get one large return on their investment. I don't care what your sex is.
This is King County's fabulous public transit system.
And let it be known, anyone lays a hand on me or my kin is looking to get one large return on their investment. I don't care what your sex is.
Evergreen
Member
Diggers, I learned this information in my conceal carry class in Oregon. You are not allowed to use a handgun in self-defense for a physical altercation, unless you are hit above the chest.. Anywhere from neck above is considered a life-threatening attack. Well, this is what our CCW instructor claimed. Maybe, the laws need to be looked at. Obviously, the size and strength of the attacker would be analyzed in a court.
However, I will tell you, as a person who was a victim of a beating and was almost beaten to death, hands can be a deadly weapon on the right attacker and right victim.
If a group of ravaging girls attacked your pregnant wife on a bus and stole her stuff, maybe you would think differently.
Would, I use a weapon in this case? Probably not, because I am bigger than the guy in the video and probably could subdue the girls. Although, when you are dealing with dangerous people, you don't know what they are planning to do. Especially a group. One can pull a gun or knife when you are not expecting it.
However, I will tell you, as a person who was a victim of a beating and was almost beaten to death, hands can be a deadly weapon on the right attacker and right victim.
If a group of ravaging girls attacked your pregnant wife on a bus and stole her stuff, maybe you would think differently.
Would, I use a weapon in this case? Probably not, because I am bigger than the guy in the video and probably could subdue the girls. Although, when you are dealing with dangerous people, you don't know what they are planning to do. Especially a group. One can pull a gun or knife when you are not expecting it.
I'd highly recommend doing your own research on this topic by researching applicable laws as they appear on the books. I've heard a lot of BS from CCW instructors on use of force, and much of the bad advice is downright dangerous.
I was brought up to never hit a woman but that does not give a woman the right to hit me. My mother has actually told me times have changed if a woman hits you, take care of yourself don't just take it.
I do believe if the man is bigger then he should try to walk away but if he can't then people are people and self defense is self defense. There are a lot of women that take advantage of the fact they are and try to use it in the aftermath. The truth is though LEO's know better and deal with it accordingly.
I do believe if the man is bigger then he should try to walk away but if he can't then people are people and self defense is self defense. There are a lot of women that take advantage of the fact they are and try to use it in the aftermath. The truth is though LEO's know better and deal with it accordingly.
On paper, I agree with you. However, I wouldn't want to have to explain to a jury why I immediately resorted to lethal force against an unarmed teenage girl.
R
seal
Member
once assaulted sex has to become a none issue. They would not have liked my response at all. however deadly force was not necessary at that point and you would have not had a clear shot and would have endangered other riders.
Lets get real, in a court of law looks matter more than facts. If a guy is 6'2" and 285lbs., fights a few girls that weigh a 110lbs. but look like school girls come on.
Pull a gun on a crowded bus and see what you get, you deserve to go to jail. There is too much of a chance to hit an innocent person. If they have no weapons there is no reason to pull a weapon, do not use a gun to make up for your lack of self defense training.
Pull a gun on a crowded bus and see what you get, you deserve to go to jail. There is too much of a chance to hit an innocent person. If they have no weapons there is no reason to pull a weapon, do not use a gun to make up for your lack of self defense training.
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