Derranger recommendations?

Is that really the first thing you're going to look at when a gun is pointed at you?Check to see if the hammer is full cock or half cock?

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Maybe. It depends on the situation, of course, but I would check if possible. I'd do the same if the badguy had a Colt SAA or 1911 or S&W .38.

If someone has a drop on you with a gun.....

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There you go with those "assumptions" again. I may or may not be "dropped" upon, maybe my group of friends is and I'm on the periphery. Or maybe I saw the guy coming up and "got ready" (as opposed to drawing and cocking my gun because I got a "bad feeling.")

it doesn't matter what "real" gun you have in your pocket

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I disagree. First of all, MY gun ain't going to be in my pocket. And it won't require any time-killing prepping before I can shoot it, either.

I've said countless times that any gun with you beats any gun not. Of course the follow up to that is, not all guns and calibers are equally effective and I think this is where I seem to disagree with a lot of folks. Given equal hits, say, center chest, most would agree that a .45 JHP will be more effective than a .22 magnum.

But for the sake of argument, let's say you and I were mugged by two perps, each of them had a 2-shot derringer, hammer down. We look at each other, smile and we decide to go for it. You shoot your guy, I shoot my guy. You're carrying your .22 magnum Davis, I'm carrying my Kimber .45. We each shoot our guy and let's say our bullets have the same effect and they both fall to the ground. (This really makes the 2-shot derringer guy happy) Problem solved for both of us. But let's try it again and this time, our bullets have NO effect! I shoot him again and eventually, so do you. CRAP! They're still not down! I can keep shooting, maybe go for a face or pelvic shot. What do you do?

Further, I think that most would also agree that having the first shot on target can go a long ways in our favor. How fast can you draw from a pocket, cock the gun and fire an accurate shot? How fast is your follow up shot?

Does speed and accuracy matter? Possibly not.......but they probably will.

"They are about as appropriate as carrying around a single action army."

Let me put this in the vernacular that the trouser slouching, shotty terminologist's can understand - Don't be dissin on the SAA!

I'm looking into pocket pistols too, the naa revolver is very derringer like in grip and size, but the seecamps and clones seem more practical (ie small with more capacity). To each their own I guess. They are classic Americana and I could see the desire to own something historical.

There you go with those "assumptions" again. I may or may not be "dropped" upon, maybe my group of friends is and I'm on the periphery. Or maybe I saw the guy coming up and "got ready" (as opposed to drawing and cocking my gun because I got a "bad feeling.")

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"Yes, I prefer your fantasy of being able to "feel trouble is coming" in time for you to draw your derringer before trouble gets there....."

I'm glad you changed your mind that "feel trouble is coming" is not a fantasy.
The phrase doesn't refer to just celestial epiphanies, it's all inclusive of reasoning and logic as well.

I disagree. First of all, MY gun ain't going to be in my pocket. And it won't require any time-killing prepping before I can shoot it, either.
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"If you were confronted by a badguy using a Bond Derringer and you noticed the hammer wasn't cocked and his thumb was nowhere near the hammer......I bet you'd wish you had a a "real" gun and practiced everyday instead of your own Bond derringer in your back pocket that you never shot. "

I'm only responding to your comments, which I had even quoted. You just said you were confronted by a badguy when you had a gun in your pocket. What exactly do you call a "drop" then? A bad guy has a gun pointed at you. You "got ready", but you didn't draw or cock your gun. The bad guy still has a "drop" on you.

But for the sake of argument, let's say you and I were mugged by two perps, each of them had a 2-shot derringer, hammer down. We look at each other, smile and we decide to go for it. You shoot your guy, I shoot my guy. You're carrying your .22 magnum Davis, I'm carrying my Kimber .45. We each shoot our guy and let's say our bullets have the same effect and they both fall to the ground. (This really makes the 2-shot derringer guy happy) Problem solved for both of us. But let's try it again and this time, our bullets have NO effect! I shoot him again and eventually, so do you. CRAP! They're still not down! I can keep shooting, maybe go for a face or pelvic shot. What do you do?

Further, I think that most would also agree that having the first shot on target can go a long ways in our favor. How fast can you draw from a pocket, cock the gun and fire an accurate shot? How fast is your follow up shot?

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You've gone off into the trouble comes from 3 yards away scenario and skipped right to the gun fight part. Yeah, if you're in an actual gun battle and everyone has their weapons out and ready to go, then you would want the bigger gun, hence the phrase "You'd want a rifle in a gun fight". I'm sure you can come up with dozens more scenarios where a derringer will under perform compared to X, but you've completely missed the argument I've been making.

You make it seem like a derringer is worthless, alluding to your "better than a sharpened stick comment". I came up with several scenarios all of which are very common situations, when a derringer/mini-revolver comes in useful. At least, as common as "Mugger pops out at 3 yards, but lets you have enough time to draw your gun" situations.

1. Why is it that when somone posts a question about derringers, as the OP did, some people (you know who you are) assume that the gun is to be used for self defense and begin typing ill things about derringers?

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Derringers were designed and advertised for self-defense. Find me an ad that says they're for hunting, target shooting or any other activity.

The M-16 was designed for war ... find me an M-16 that's not being used in war. Wait! You can!

The moment you open this can of worms of "what are guns designed for" you're entering into *very* murky waters.
Handguns weren't designed for hunting, ffs. But I'm sure you agree that there is such a thing as a hunting revolver. But for some reason there is no such thing as a "HAHAHA! THIS IS FUN!- Derringer," right?

The M-16 was designed for war ... find me an M-16 that's not being used in war. Wait! You can!

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The difference is, the M-16 does the job. And modern M-16s are accurate enough for target shooting, varmit hunting, and so on.

The derringer is not accurate or powerful enough for target shooting, hunting, or other activities.

quatin said:

I came up with several scenarios all of which are very common situations, when a derringer/mini-revolver comes in useful. At least, as common as "Mugger pops out at 3 yards, but lets you have enough time to draw your gun" situations.

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Would a P32/P3AT/LCP be inferior to the derringer in any of those situations?

The derringer is not accurate or powerful enough for target shooting, hunting, or other activities.

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It's accurate and powerful enough (especially in the larger chamberings) to make me giggle when I punch a hole in an old computer or paper, or range trash with it. Or do we not use guns for that? Because in that case I'm sorry. I'll go sell mine. Because that's all they've ever done.

It's accurate and powerful enough (especially in the larger chamberings) to make me giggle when I punch a hole in an old computer or paper, or range trash with it. Or do we not use guns for that? Because in that case I'm sorry. I'll go sell mine. Because that's all they've ever done.

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Yeah, you aren't allowed to own a derringer and carry it for SD too. I guess these aren't the guys to talk flintlock pistols with, are they?...lol

Personally, if I did it all over again I would spring the bucks for a Bond Arms and then get the .44 special barrels. Would compliment my main piece perfectly as a back up weapon and could use the same ammo. Also, derringers have a lot better reliability record than compact autos.

They make great conversation pieces with non gun owners, women especially, because they are diminutive, non offensive in appearance, and interesting looking objects that fit in the palm of your hand. Some people just don't like the ladies I guess.

Is that really the first thing you're going to look at when a gun is pointed at you?Check to see if the hammer is full cock or half cock?

Maybe. It depends on the situation, of course, but I would check if possible. I'd do the same if the badguy had a Colt SAA or 1911 or S&W .38.

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Just curious...why look to see if a S&W .38 is cocked? Not sure I understand the reasoning behind that one...

On to the subject at hand...

I did carry an American Derringer as a deep concealment BUG for a number of years. If I ever got down to were I needed that 3rd gun I figured I would likely be with touching distance and a contact wound with a .223 and all that exiting gas would likely end the fight. I tried it on a 12X24 inch block of ballistics gel. A single contact shot through 2 layers of denim and that block was completely destroyed. It was ripped into several pieces. sadly I sold it when someone offered me too much money and I got greedy. I will find another someday.

I did practice with it a good bit and could present it from a Kramer Confidential T as fast as I could a revolver. If shot from further than contact distance the fireball (and it was huge) was a weapon in itself. I tried it on a mannequin head at 5 feet and set it's wig on fire...lol.

Would I ever carry it as my primary? No. I hardly ever carried it as 1st BUG. But it was always very comforting to have as a last ditch before pulling out a knife weapon. Even at 10 feet the fireball is blinding at night, it was palmable, and I found out when I was training LEO's few ever went high enough in the armpit to detect it in a fast frisk.

btw...I have seen Cowboy action shooting mentioned several times...has anyone watched just how fast and accurate some of those guys are with a derringer? Practice is everything.

Would a P32/P3AT/LCP be inferior to the derringer in any of those situations?

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You won't be able to completely palm a LCP, so you'll need to keep your hand in your pocket. It will become cumbersome if you need to move (especially if you need to run) and might draw suspicion if you keep it there for a long time. You'll also lose the use of one arm in the beginning few seconds of a fight. These are all acceptable trade offs for having a bigger gun, though. It's up to personal preference, as is it is with most carry pieces.

Quatin: I'm only responding to your comments, which I had even quoted. You just said you were confronted by a badguy when you had a gun in your pocket.

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No, I didn't say MY gun was in my pocket. My primary gun is never pocket carried.

What exactly do you call a "drop" then? A bad guy has a gun pointed at you. You "got ready", but you didn't draw or cock your gun. The bad guy still has a "drop" on you.

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By "got ready" I mean that, among other things, maybe I put my hand on my holstered gun. Most of the draw time is taken up during acquisition, not presentation. What this means is, starting with my hand ON my holstered gun I can draw and put a center hit on your 3-yard badguy in under 1/2 second. (usually it hovers around 1/3 of a second)

You won't be able to completely palm a LCP (like you can a derringer)

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Help me understand how you're doing this. Is the derringer palmed cocked, or thumb on hammer, hammer down, or what? As I envision this, the derringer could only be completely palmed in a manner where the gun isn't ready for immediate use. (like the above mentioned 1/2 second) But maybe I'm missing something..... How could you palm a derringer completely and be ready and not do the same thing with an LCP?

I never said a derringer was worthless for SD. To paraphrase Mel Tappan, if carrying a 2-shot single action derringer improves your odds from 0% (unarmed) to 5%, then it's still an improvement on the odds.

No, I didn't say MY gun was in my pocket. My primary gun is never pocket carried.

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I was responding to this comment you posted. Fine, I interchanged "you", "me" and "I", but I'm still talking about this scenario. If someone has a drop on me, you or anyone else. It doesn't matter what "real" gun you have in your pocket/holster.

"If you were confronted by a badguy using a Bond Derringer and you noticed the hammer wasn't cocked and his thumb was nowhere near the hammer......I bet you'd wish you had a a "real" gun and practiced everyday instead of your own Bond derringer in your back pocket that you never shot. "

By "got ready" I mean that, among other things, maybe I put my hand on my holstered gun. Most of the draw time is taken up during acquisition, not presentation. What this means is, starting with my hand ON my holstered gun I can draw and put a center hit on your 3-yard badguy in under 1/2 second. (usually it hovers around 1/3 of a second)

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That's the entire point of the past several posts. There are several common situations where putting your hand on your holster in an obvious "I'm drawing a gun" motion is a bad idea.

Help me understand how you're doing this. Is the derringer palmed cocked, or thumb on hammer, hammer down, or what? As I envision this, the derringer could only be completely palmed in a manner where the gun isn't ready for immediate use. (like the above mentioned 1/2 second) But maybe I'm missing something..... How could you palm a derringer completely and be ready and not do the same thing with an LCP?

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You would hold it in the most obvious manner you would think when I say "put the gun in your palm and close your fingers". There's no special palming grip that I'm alluding to. You can cock the hammer when you draw it from your pocket if you want. It won't be in a firing grip, as that would mean the gun is exposed. I'm not sure if you think it's possible to actually conceal a LCP in your hand or what. If you're not seeing it, then you'll have to get both guns out and try palming each one.

I never said a derringer was worthless for SD. To paraphrase Mel Tappan, if carrying a 2-shot single action derringer improves your odds from 0% (unarmed) to 5%, then it's still an improvement on the odds.

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You're just picking at semantics here. So you don't think it's entirely worthless, but you think is nearly worthless or maybe 5% worthwhile. We all know the meaning of the phrase "better than a sharpened stick". There's no reason arguing over the precise worth of the sharpened stick.

Would I ever carry it as my primary? No. I hardly ever carried it as 1st BUG. But it was always very comforting to have as a last ditch before pulling out a knife weapon.

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I'll second that. Might be a lousy defensive weapon but works pretty good as a last ditch weapon. I really wouldn't want to open a closet door or some other hiding place where someone is concealed holding a derringer with the hammer back....

IMO the time of the derringer for a self defense weapon is solidly over. They're better than a stick or a rock but that's about it. Cool to collect because they will always be neat but it's undeniable the better options with the same attributes now available.

I like the idea of a pocketable DERANGER - would be nice to have a brain scrambler for non-lethal use. Of course, most criminals are deranged already. LOL

You would hold it in the most obvious manner you would think when I say "put the gun in your palm and close your fingers". There's no special palming grip that I'm alluding to. You can cock the hammer when you draw it from your pocket if you want. It won't be in a firing grip, as that would mean the gun is exposed.

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I would be curious, holding a derringer in such a manner, how fast you can make a HIT on that 3-yard target, cocked or not. I don't think it would be as fast as you suggest.

I'm not sure if you think it's possible to actually conceal a LCP in your hand or what.

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Sure it is. Certainly easier than "palming" a Bond Arms in .45 Colt/.410. The difference here would be not closing your fingers, but keeping them open, holding the gun in place with your thumb. A faster first shot is much more do-able, too.

So you don't think it's entirely worthless, but you think is nearly worthless or maybe 5% worthwhile.

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As a primary gun, absolutely. There are so many better choices out there that's it's pure folly to choose a derringer for a primary defense gun on purpose.

Now, for the fun of owning and shooting one, they're great !!

I would be curious, holding a derringer in such a manner, how fast you can make a HIT on that 3-yard target, cocked or not. I don't think it would be as fast as you suggest.

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Again with the 3 yard scenario. You seem to have a motive for dismissing mouse guns. You keep repeating that they aren't good for shooting long distances. We all know that, no one is arguing that derringers are for distance shooting. It also seems you've never held a derringer/mini-revolver or I don't see why you would think it's a problem to go from palming it to a firing grip. I don't see how it could be any slower than drawing from an IWB holster.

Sure it is. Certainly easier than "palming" a Bond Arms in .45 Colt/.410. The difference here would be not closing your fingers, but keeping them open, holding the gun in place with your thumb. A faster first shot is much more do-able, too.

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Why is it when you list the scenario where I had to shoot a bad guy with a derringer, it was a .22, but when I want to palm one it's now the .45 Colt? If the .45 Colt derringer doesn't fit in your hand, then don't try to palm it as if you could.

The point I made is that some derringers can fit almost completely in your hand. You can have your hands out and free use of your arms without revealing that you've drawn a gun. You still can't do that with the LCP, even in the manner you described. You'll have to keep your palm against your body to hide the other side. It restricts your arm movement and may look suspicious. It might not be much better than keeping your hand in your pocket (assuming you pocket carry it) and maintaining a firing grip.

As a primary gun, absolutely. There are so many better choices out there that's it's pure folly to choose a derringer for a primary defense gun on purpose.

Now, for the fun of owning and shooting one, they're great !!

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Well geez, you should've mentioned that the first two times I addressed that comment. We're not even discussing this topic. We started with derringer recommendations, then ventured off on mouse gun usage and now you're bringing up derringers as a primary carry gun. Start a new thread if you want to discuss this, this one is pretty derailed as it is.

Why is it that every single one of these threads turns out to be an argument and a pissing match? Why can't everyone just answer the OP's question???

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Partially because the OP never actually specified what his intended application for the gun is.

Also, it is my understanding that many models of derringer do not have drop safeties, which, to any right-thinking person, would render them unusable as a viable choice for concealed carry.

Again with the 3 yard scenario. You keep repeating that they aren't good for shooting long distances.

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Are you saying that 3 yds is long distance?

I don't see why you would think it's a problem to go from palming it to a firing grip.

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I suspect that you've never actually tried to do that under time pressure. Sure, it may be easy to do on a relaxing day at the range, but let's add a little pressure and find out how long it really takes.

I don't see how it could be any slower than drawing from an IWB holster

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If you can palm it, then I can start with my hand on my IWB holstered gun. You can choose your caliber and whether it's cocked or not. Can you beat 1/2 second? (including reaction time)

You seem to have a motive for dismissing mouse guns.

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I don't dismiss them, but I don't consider them to be a serious choice for SD.

Look, I'm not trying to rain on your "Derringers Rule!" parade, but there are many better choices out there for SD. The serious gun-toter would never choose a derringer as a first line of defense.

Too bad the OP never chimed back in with what, exactly, he wanted the "Derranger" for.

Altho he did say in Post #14:

How big are the KelTec as compaired to the Davis guns and such? More shots makes more sence.

This indicates that he did, indeed, want it for SD purposes.

Are you saying that 3 yds is long distance?

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Yes. I've repeated that with my past several posts.

I suspect that you've never actually tried to do that under time pressure. Sure, it may be easy to do on a relaxing day at the range, but let's add a little pressure and find out how long it really takes.

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That's true for drawing from IWB as well. Were your 1/3 second draws while under fire? We all know pressure and adrenaline has a negative effect on your concentration. Unless you can show me a carry method where adrenaline and pressure has a positive effect, this doesn't make a difference in anything.

I don't see how it could be any slower than drawing from an IWB holster
If you can palm it, then I can start with my hand on my IWB holstered gun. You can choose your caliber and whether it's cocked or not. Can you beat 1/2 second? (including reaction time)

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If you're just going to completely disregard all the situations I've discussed on mouse gun use, there's no point in continuing on hypothetical scenarios. I've gone over situations where reaching back in an obvious "I'm drawing a gun" manner is a bad idea.

I don't dismiss them, but I don't consider them to be a serious choice for SD.

Look, I'm not trying to rain on your "Derringers Rule!" parade, but there are many better choices out there for SD. The serious gun-toter would never choose a derringer as a first line of defense.

Too bad the OP never chimed back in with what, exactly, he wanted the "Derranger" for.

Altho he did say in Post #14:

How big are the KelTec as compaired to the Davis guns and such? More shots makes more sence.

This indicates that he did, indeed, want it for SD purposes.

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That would be the definition of dismissing them. Why are we still arguing over semantics on this? I've gone over several situations where a mouse gun would be used for SD, you're just refusing to address any of them. Repeating phrases akin to "better than a sharpened stick" or "no one seriously carries one" without discussing the reason is raining on our parade.

Waste of powder, loss of ballistics, terrible trigger, takes both hands to actually use, slow to reload, and is heavier than the pocket 380's which will provide better ballistics, capacity, and usability. There is NO reason to get a Derringer other than you want one... Derringers are nothing more than an outdated notion of a gun.

if you want something that is smaller than the smallest available semi-auto's (kel tec, LCP, TCP... ect...) then opt for the NAA minis. I DO NOT like them either, but one can reasonably come up with size and weight advantages to them....though do you really need something smaller than a wallet? They become really impractical at that point... When you add in the need to cock the hammer (of this TINY little thing) they become a liability.

Simply put, a derringer is a step back in every way.... Now, where's my Home Defense Blunderbuss?

Are you saying that 3 yds is long distance?

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Yes. I've repeated that with my past several posts.

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No, you didn't. You simply said that most fights start at "conversation" range:

If you've seen or been in a fight, it starts at conversation range and begins with talk. You have your hands in your pocket for a few seconds, draw and palm the gun, completely innocuous. If a fight breaks out, you already have the gun out.

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If a fight breaks out, why do you have a gun in your hand? If a lethal force encounter breaks out, it's going to be tough to cock that hammer at "conversation range" if he's all over you with a knife, fists, or gun.

That's true for drawing from IWB as well. Were your 1/3 second draws while under fire?

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Nope. Were your derringer encounters under fire? If so, then details would be nice so we can all learn from your experience.

this doesn't make a difference in anything.

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Barring your deadly encounters where you prevailed by using your derringer, the difference is I actually know how long it takes me to draw my holstered gun with my hand on it. It might be a critical thing to know one day.

I don't dismiss any object that can be used with deadly results, a derringer being among them. But that doesn't mean all objects or guns are equally effective.

John Farnam, a world renowned firearms instructor was teaching a class. At lunch, he observed that no one was armed and mentioned it to his host. The host replied, "See that guy in the blue shirt? He's armed. He's got a North American Arms mini-revolver in his right pocket, wrapped up in a handkerchief to break up the outline."

Farnam was bemused and said, "Oh, I thought you said he was armed."

Perhaps I am totally missing a key element here.

Clearly, you are a champion of the derringer and/or NAA mini-revolver for defense.

I presume, therefore, that you did not simply arrive at your conclusions out of thin air and must be a serious student of the craft which you have undoubtedly pursued it to the point of excellence, resulting in your insightful posts.

I was hoping you would share some of your practice drills, experiences, etc, (ideally with video) so that we can all learn from your endeavors.