Your right to remain silent.

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dogbaloo said:
There is a poster here who has a link in their sig line with a you tube video. The video is of a law professor and former defense attorney speaking as to WHY you don't want to talk to the police, even if you know you're innocent.
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Scroll up, post #7
 
This 10k defense is exaggerated. Many aren't even charged in self defense shootings. 0$.
On the issue of self incrimination, I think you have an interesting point. If you call them and say "I was attacked and shot the attacker in self defense" you are not incriminating yourself in any crime. Just the opposite. Or even "there has been a shooting". That isn't a crime if it is justified, so you you aren't self incriminating either. They may not figure that out, especially until you or someone else tells them about it...
If you murder someone, you are not required to call the police and report it, because of your protection against self incrimination. :eek:
 
@Texas Rifleman-

Thanks for the citation of TX law. I understand now. I'm in VT. Things are different here.

-LC
 
dogbaloo said:
...There is a poster here who has a link in their sig line with a you tube video. The video is of a law professor and former defense attorney speaking as to WHY you don't want to talk to the police, even if you know you're innocent. After the law professor speaks for about 30 minutes, a 20 year veteren detective speaks...and says the same thing; Do. Not. Talk. To. The. Police.
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Guillermo said:
here is something that EVERYONE should listen to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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I stand by my comment that this is bad advice in a self defense situation. You don't want to say too much, but there are things you definitely need to say. See post 21:
fiddletown said:
And Keeping Silent Isn't the Best Idea in a Self Defense Matter
But Don't Say Too Much.

Call 911. Be the first to report the incident and do so immediately. If you don't report it, or if there's a long delay, you will appear to have a guilty conscience.

Then, having taken LFI-I with Massad Ayoob, spending time with him and helping with a class of his in Sierra Vista, AZ not too long ago, I'll go along with his recommendation for when the police arrive.

[1] While one has a right to remain silent, clamming up is what the bad guys do. Following a self defense incident, you'll want to act like one of the good guys. You also won't want the investigating officers to miss any evidence or possible witnesses. What if the responding officers miss your assailant's knife that you saw fall down the storm drain? What if they don't know about the guy you saw pick up your assailant's gun and walk off with it?

[2] At the same time, you don't want to say too much. You will most likely be rattled. You will also most likely be suffering from various well known stress induced distortions of perception.

[3] So Massad Ayoob recommends:

  • Saying something like, "That person (or those people) attacked me." You are thus immediately identifying yourself as the victim. It also helps get the investigation off on the right track.
  • Saying something like, "I will sign a complaint." You are thus immediately identifying the other guys(s) as the criminal(s).
  • Pointing out possible evidence, especially evidence that may not be immediate apparent. You don't want any such evidence to be missed.
  • Pointing out possible witnesses.
  • Then saying something like, "I'm not going to say anything more right now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've talked with my lawyer."
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Thanks for the citation of TX law. I understand now. I'm in VT. Things are different here.
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Can you show the differences in your law? I'd be interested in seeing the difference.

Not being a lawyer I'm having a hard time understanding how you can write a law that doesn't make something a crime until after well the fact.
 
This thread is a joke right? Troll food?

Shoot someone in a remote area and not call police to save money?? Someone please lock this nonsense. You think standing over a corpse with a smoking gun and stating you are not going to say anything will have the cops thinking self defense?

You shot someone, regardless of the circumstances, you shot someone. There may be times its justified, but the fact remains you have committed a felony. To remain silent or to not even call the police would most certainly result in a ride in a gas chamber...
 
TexasRifleman said:
Not being a lawyer I'm having a hard time understanding how you can write a law that doesn't make something a crime until after well the fact.
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And you really can't, but let's try looking at the question this way (note that (1) I'm applying general legal principles and details may vary slightly in different jurisdictions; and (2) this will be a pretty high level overview).

Homicide is the killing of one person by another. A homicide can be --

  1. Accidental;
  2. Negligent;
  3. The result of reckless (or willful, wanton and reckless) conduct;
  4. Intentional without malice (evil intent);
  5. Intentional with malice; and
  6. Intentional, premeditated and with malice.

An accidental homicide basically would be a death occurring as the unintended result of actions of an actor, even though the actor acted as a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances. The actor incurs no criminal or civil liability in the case of a truly accidental homicide.

A negligent homicide would be a death occurring as the unintended result of the actions of an actor failing to use the degree of care expected of a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances. And the actor incurs civil, but not criminal, liability in the case of a negligent homicide.

Homicides [3] - [6] are crimes: involuntary manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, murder, and first degree murder, respectively.

The various types of homicide are defined in terms of the state of mind/intent/conduct of the actor.

If you point a gun at someone, the gun discharges and the person dies, your conduct gives rise to at least an articulable suspicion that a crime anywhere from involuntary manslaughter (pointing a gun at someone is at least reckless) to murder in the first degree has been committed. If you are claiming that you acted in self defense, you would be at least admitting the elements of voluntary manslaughter, i. e., you intentionally shot the guy.

It will be up to you to make the case for your defense, i. e., it was an accident, it was mere negligence, it was justified.
 
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fiddletown

don't take my link to mean that you shouldn't report the body on the lawn.

I said what I meant and no further meaning should be attached to it.

EVERYONE should watch that video
 
Can you show the differences in your law? I'd be interested in seeing the difference.

Not being a lawyer I'm having a hard time understanding how you can write a law that doesn't make something a crime until after well the fact.
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TR-


The relevant statute is Chapter 53, Paragraph 2305 of the Vermont Civil Code.*

http://law.justia.com/vermont/codes/2005/title13/section02305.html

§ 2305. Justifiable homicide
If a person kills or wounds another under any of the circumstances enumerated below, he shall be guiltless:
(1) In the just and necessary defense of his own life or the life of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, sister, master, mistress, servant, guardian or ward; or
(2) In the suppression of a person attempting to commit murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, burglary or robbery, with force or violence; or
(3) In the case of a civil officer; or a military officer or private soldier when lawfully called out to suppress riot or rebellion, or to prevent or suppress invasion, or to assist in serving legal process, in suppressing opposition against him in the just and necessary discharge of his duty. (Amended 1983, No. 23, § 2.)
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That's the sum total of what it says.*

Comparing it to TX law is a bit of an apples v. oranges case. Our civil code is fairly simple. Primitive, possibly.*

That said, there appears to be zero legal difference between a citizen acting in defense of himself or others and a LEO discharging his duties.*

I am not a lawyer, however.*
 
Now I'm confused, I thought we were discussing Criminal law...this reference is to the Civil Code.

Is there no difference in Vermont?

They haven't updated since 2005?
 
I think the difference in VT has to do with how murder is defined. The code accepts that there are killings. It only criminalizes those killings that meet the definitions of murder (1 and 2), manslaughter and reckless or negligent homicide.

It does not state that all killings are crimes, unless there are mitigating circumstances.

This takes a very conservative approach to state power- that all acts a presumed legal, unless there is a compelling state interest in prohibiting them.
 
Jeez, I'd think this would be as easy as "Ya shot somebody and some people might take it the wrong way. Report it, but be careful." regardles of the state you're in.
 
Jeez, I'd think this would be as easy as "Ya shot somebody and some people might take it the wrong way. Report it, but be careful." regardles of the state you're in.
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Panzer...I woulda thunk that you would have been around long enough to know that we are going to parse this thing, like all things, six ways from Sunday.

The High Road is a long road...enjoy the journey
 
Jeez, I'd think this would be as easy as "Ya shot somebody and some people might take it the wrong way. Report it, but be careful." regardles of the state you're in.
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Yeah but we all wanted to be lawyers but didn't go to law school so it's fun to try to work through the details :)

And if we learn something about the law as it relates to guns and their lawful use on the way that's a good thing.
 
I didn't read every post in detail, but it seems like most people are missing one very important point:

If you had to shoot someone in self-defense, then they must have been committing a crime against you in the first place. Don't you want to report THAT crime?

Even if it's as simple as a "fear assault," I think you'd want to call the police and say, "A man just threatened to kill me and I thought he was really going to do it. I shot him in self-defense and I need help! Please hurry!"

Then keep your damn mouth shut about the specifics until you've talked to a lawyer. It's that simple, really. You can talk to the police, but keep it to a bare minimum, because things you say WILL be used against you.

A self-defense shooting is a situation you want to "get out in front of."

Be courteous in the way you refuse to answer questions without your lawyer present, but if they get nasty, don't let them manipulate you into talking without your lawyer.

Aaron (who is a lawyer, but is not YOUR lawyer, so this isn't legal advice for YOU)
 
9mmepiphany said:
Now I'm confused, I thought we were discussing Criminal law...this reference is to the Civil Code.

Is there no difference in Vermont?

They haven't updated since 2005?
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My citation from Justia dates from 2005. The statute, as written, is still current.

You're correct, however. It is not the VT Civil Code. It is simply called The Vermont Statutes. It's a compendium of all VT's laws. Criminal law is just a subset, thereof.
 
I stand by my comment that this is bad advice in a self defense situation. You don't want to say too much, but there are things you definitely need to say. See post 21:
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The problem is, and this is insight I have gotten from several sources, that once people get talking after a stressful situation, they seem to lose the ability to stop or to keep their words in check. The situation is new to them. They don't understand all the feelings they are having after a shooting. There may be feelings of horror, grief, violation, relief, vindication, personal soul searching from having killed another human being, all happening in conjunction with radically shifted levels of blood sugar, adrenaline, and various chemicals that act on the brain in response to each of these stimuli. Such people often feel an overwhelming need to connect with another human being to relate the events. So talking is cathartic to them and the nice cop is kind enough to listen. The problem is, they end up with the cops as their confessors instead of a lawyer or priest....and anything they say can and will be used against them.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
The problem is, ...that once people get talking after a stressful situation, they seem to lose the ability to stop or to keep their words in check....
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True enough. But that's why people need to understand the issues and mentally prepare themselves. As I've discussed, following a use of force in self defense, there are things that need to be said in order to lay the best foundation for a self defense claim, and nothing should be said beyond that.

Maintaining that proper level of control is difficult. But many things we need to be able to do are difficult and are counter to our natural tendencies. Learning to overcome some of those natural tendencies and to instead do what's best in a particular situation is a lot of what education and training are about.
 
fiddletown said:
But that's why people need to understand the issues and mentally prepare themselves. As I've discussed, following a use of force in self defense, there are things that need to be said in order to lay the best foundation for a self defense claim, and nothing should be said beyond that.
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This is very true.

You have to understand, as fiddletown explained earlier, that claiming self defense is first admitting to most of what the ADA is trying to prove in most cases. So now your presumption of innocence is gone...you need to get ahead of the investigators line of inquiry and insure that everything in your favor is brought forward
 
If you plead self defense, you ARE ADMITTING to deliberate criminal homicide; self defense is an affirmative defense to that charge and as such has to be PROVEN by you. The state does not have to PROVE you guilty of homicide; you do that by claiming self defense. Then it is up to you to prove your claim that the homicide was justifiable.

So you can't say, "it was an accident, I didn't mean it" and then claim self defense. It is one or the other, an accident or a deliberate killing in self defense. Your lawyer can give you the best advice, but don't compromise yourself by talking about it.

As to talking to the cops, you are obliged to give your name, address, and contact info. Other than that, limit yourself to saying that you were attacked. Period. Don't engage in any discussions, or think that you will make friends with the police. Don't even use the term "self defense" (see above). Say you are in no condition to talk to anyone but ask immediately to be allowed to call your lawyer.

If you are Mirandaed, shut up entirely. Above all, don't get into any discussions or talk to the police about the incident. A cop may pretend to be your friend; he may want to talk about guns and what you carried. He may chat about ammunition, especially if you reload. He is NOT your friend; his job is to get evidence against you. He hates you for owning a gun and wants you put away for life. Your discussion about your reloads will come out in court as "concocting evil murderous bullets in the dark of the night in his basement".

I strongly recommend that if you carry a gun you have a lawyer on retainer. And memorize his phone number. The cops have to allow you to call an attorney - they don't have to allow you to keep your PDA or let you use a phone book. And resign yourself to spending at least a day in jail. Then, if bail is granted, you or someone will have to come up with the ten percent non-refundable bail bondsmans fee. If the bail is $500,000 (possible in a homicide case) you have to get up $50,000 in cash or negotiables, now, or stay behind bars.

Jim
 
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Not a lawyer nor do I play one

But the most common advice I get is:
1.He who calleth 911 first is the victim;thus be that person.
2.Ayoob's suggestions as to what to say & in what sequence.
3.Have the name & # of a lawyer that handles gun cases(this is where having a cop buddy pays off:"Who do y'all use?"):not the lawyer who handled your last real estate transaction.
4.You've been told you have the right to remain silent:USE IT!
5.The camera & recorder on your phone can be your friends.
6.Do not take being treated like a suspect (cuffed,etc) personally:you ARE a
suspect!
7."I was in fear of my life & defended myself" is your mantra.
 
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