LemmyCaution
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Because I've had people shoot at me from 25 meters before?
I don't know. What do you think is reasonable?
Let's quantify "better than a sharp stick."
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Because I've had people shoot at me from 25 meters before?
I don't know. What do you think is reasonable?
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Aw, nuts. I was all set to fire off my mouth like an old ten-bore shotgun, but somebody had to interject reasonability into the discussion.
Now, I'm going to sulk.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Chirk up -- you can always start a 9mm vs .45 ACP thread.
mljdeckard
Member
I have a better question. Suppose you were FORCED to choose between a couple of different round to GET shot with. Which would you rather take your chances with, a .25, a .22, or a 9mm or .45?
None are adequate for self-defense. Some are much worse than others. What would I CHOOSE to start the continuum of force? How about a platoon of Marine infantry? Handguns are about making the least worst choice. All of us should use the system we can best use to inflict the most cavity trauma in the shortest amount of time upon the person trying to kill us. Good hits with a .22 offer exponentially less trauma than good hits with a 9mm.
None are adequate for self-defense. Some are much worse than others. What would I CHOOSE to start the continuum of force? How about a platoon of Marine infantry? Handguns are about making the least worst choice. All of us should use the system we can best use to inflict the most cavity trauma in the shortest amount of time upon the person trying to kill us. Good hits with a .22 offer exponentially less trauma than good hits with a 9mm.
If I left the house with nothing but a sharp stick I'd look pretty silly at the copy machine.
Then again our ancient ancestors did that very thing and still managed to kill buffalo and deer and fend off other avenging stone age cultures.. all without pants!
The firearm is the last chapter in defense, not the first page.
Then again our ancient ancestors did that very thing and still managed to kill buffalo and deer and fend off other avenging stone age cultures.. all without pants!
The firearm is the last chapter in defense, not the first page.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I've always said, when it comes to selecting a defensive weapon, go for the one you'd choose if a meth-crazed mob was breaking into your house intent on murder and rape, and you were standing next to your open gun safe.
Having said that, we must realize that your first choice (say a 12 Gauge pump with 00 buck or slug) wouldn't be practical for daily carry, so a handgun is needed. To choose a handgun, apply the following criteria:
1. Reliability. It has to go bang! each and every time you pull the trigger. Otherwise, it's just a funny-looking club.
2. Shootability. This is how the gun performs in your hands. Or to look at it another way, given that it went bang!, now you need to get a hit.
3. Power or effectiveness. Given that it went bang! and you got a hit, did it do the job? Remember, under real combat conditions, you may get only one hit.
4. Portability. This is both easy of carry and ease of concealment. A gun that is uncomfortable to carry is likely to be left at home. And many states require the gun to be concealed, and many people are leery of open carry even if legal.
Having said that, we must realize that your first choice (say a 12 Gauge pump with 00 buck or slug) wouldn't be practical for daily carry, so a handgun is needed. To choose a handgun, apply the following criteria:
1. Reliability. It has to go bang! each and every time you pull the trigger. Otherwise, it's just a funny-looking club.
2. Shootability. This is how the gun performs in your hands. Or to look at it another way, given that it went bang!, now you need to get a hit.
3. Power or effectiveness. Given that it went bang! and you got a hit, did it do the job? Remember, under real combat conditions, you may get only one hit.
4. Portability. This is both easy of carry and ease of concealment. A gun that is uncomfortable to carry is likely to be left at home. And many states require the gun to be concealed, and many people are leery of open carry even if legal.
76shuvlinoff
Member
There's a sig line in there somewhere!
Vern Humphrey
Member
But it was easier in those days -- the deer and buffalo were rolling on the ground laughing at those bare-butt hunters.
Hatterasguy
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In reality it doesn't matter what you shoot, as long as your well trained enough to actually hit your target. Or in the case of a long stick, er well a Mosin with the pointing end on it, stick them.
Most armchair commando's concentrate to much on gear. Any bullet fired out of any gun will do the trick. As long as you are comfortable with it. IE an over under trap shotgun will be more affective in HD when wielded by a very cool shooter than an Uzi used by someone pissing their pants who can barely point it straight. Having the right gear can certainly help, but people spend to much effort and thought on it. If the weapon goes bang and your comfortable with it, it will do; concentrate on being able to put the rounds on target. Is it better than a pointy stick, yeah probably, although a Mosin is a pretty good war pike when empty.
People forget that during WW2 house clearing was very often done when they had to with Garands, Enfields, K98's and Mosins. So yes just about any weapon can do the job.
Most armchair commando's concentrate to much on gear. Any bullet fired out of any gun will do the trick. As long as you are comfortable with it. IE an over under trap shotgun will be more affective in HD when wielded by a very cool shooter than an Uzi used by someone pissing their pants who can barely point it straight. Having the right gear can certainly help, but people spend to much effort and thought on it. If the weapon goes bang and your comfortable with it, it will do; concentrate on being able to put the rounds on target. Is it better than a pointy stick, yeah probably, although a Mosin is a pretty good war pike when empty.
People forget that during WW2 house clearing was very often done when they had to with Garands, Enfields, K98's and Mosins. So yes just about any weapon can do the job.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Another mistake that armchair commandos make is to assume perfect performance under great stress.
If you look at actual gunfights, you see a lot of ammo fired for very few hits -- I had an NVA lieutenant fire 10 rounds at me from a Browning Hi Power at less than 10 yards and get zero hits. (He would have fired all 13, but he was rudely interrupted by a .357 bullet.)
JohnBT
Member
"Then again our ancient ancestors did that very thing and still managed to kill buffalo and deer and fend off other avenging stone age cultures.. all without pants!"
Yeah, but they had really big sticks.
And they didn't have to wear blaze orange.
Yeah, but they had really big sticks.
And they didn't have to wear blaze orange.
Hatterasguy
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Yep, most times the participants try to move out of the way and shoot at the same time; usually resulting in rounds going everywhere until the guns are empty. It takes an enormous amount of conditioning to stand firm and fire back aimed shoots.
Which it sounds like you have!
Ballistics
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Just apply it to YOUR scenario and disregard the opinions that fall far out of your scenario.
If you're choosing a SD weapon and live in an average single family home in the 1500 to 3500 square foot range, try to determine the range at which you'll use the weapon in a SD scenario. Pick a reliable weapon that you're comfortable with and then hope you never have to use it in that situation.
Personally, I think 9mm to .45acp or shotgun is sufficient for 90% of SD scenarios.
5% of the time the thug will be drugged up and may take a couple of shots to the chest and still be amped up enough to search for the gun in his pocket to return fire. In those rare instances, the only thing that may work the first time will be unloading 5 rounds of 00 or 000 buck into the guy to turn him into spaghetti.
The other 5% of the time the thug will get killed by a single well-placed .22LR shot.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
If you're choosing a SD weapon and live in an average single family home in the 1500 to 3500 square foot range, try to determine the range at which you'll use the weapon in a SD scenario. Pick a reliable weapon that you're comfortable with and then hope you never have to use it in that situation.
Personally, I think 9mm to .45acp or shotgun is sufficient for 90% of SD scenarios.
5% of the time the thug will be drugged up and may take a couple of shots to the chest and still be amped up enough to search for the gun in his pocket to return fire. In those rare instances, the only thing that may work the first time will be unloading 5 rounds of 00 or 000 buck into the guy to turn him into spaghetti.
The other 5% of the time the thug will get killed by a single well-placed .22LR shot.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Coolbreeze8804
Member
Well... From the arrogance of being on the winning team for the fight last night, I can safely say that i KNOW what the best weapon is.
Here's the background...
Pack of intellectually impaired folks fires up the 4X in the park next door, and proceeds to do a few donuts. Knowing that Local LEO will not respond in time, I engage my alligator arse before engaging my brain and run out to stop said vandalism. I yell, like the idiot that I am apparently intent on immitating, and yell again, and they stop. From the inside of the pickup I hear, "Run the @#!$% over!" RPMs up and the mud starting to fly and I figure, "well that was dumb, now I'm gonna get it..." and suddenly the truck stops, the engine stops, and there is a great stillness. I hear my wife holler from the porch.. "get out. walk away... you can come get it tommorow... " and they do... and I'm just standing there trying to catch my breath and trying to figure out what I missed and how it got so wrong so quick...
I then hustle myself back up to the porch to find my little gal on the porch, M4 leaning against the wall, and a laser pointer I bought for the cat in her hand. I looked at her a bit horrified, she shook her head and said, "50 years, all that crap in the I'm a bloody hero box, and you're still an idiot. go back in the house"
holy crap. I'm gonna hear about this for a year. But I do know that laser pointer is tougher than Ford F-350 full of drunk rednecks... :banghead:
Here's the background...
Pack of intellectually impaired folks fires up the 4X in the park next door, and proceeds to do a few donuts. Knowing that Local LEO will not respond in time, I engage my alligator arse before engaging my brain and run out to stop said vandalism. I yell, like the idiot that I am apparently intent on immitating, and yell again, and they stop. From the inside of the pickup I hear, "Run the @#!$% over!" RPMs up and the mud starting to fly and I figure, "well that was dumb, now I'm gonna get it..." and suddenly the truck stops, the engine stops, and there is a great stillness. I hear my wife holler from the porch.. "get out. walk away... you can come get it tommorow... " and they do... and I'm just standing there trying to catch my breath and trying to figure out what I missed and how it got so wrong so quick...
I then hustle myself back up to the porch to find my little gal on the porch, M4 leaning against the wall, and a laser pointer I bought for the cat in her hand. I looked at her a bit horrified, she shook her head and said, "50 years, all that crap in the I'm a bloody hero box, and you're still an idiot. go back in the house"
holy crap. I'm gonna hear about this for a year. But I do know that laser pointer is tougher than Ford F-350 full of drunk rednecks... :banghead:
ArmedLiberal
Member
Completely and totally awesome. Your wife is a true warrior.
It's like the old saying that your brain is your only erogenous zone.
Your brain is your only weapon. All else is just details.
Ryder
Member
The answer depends on the application.
I've seen guys so large that I doubted the usefulness of my 45acp. Odds of needing to defend myself against that are very rare however so I don't often carry the 44mag. In fact I carry a 9mm mostly because of the convenience.
I have a long history of making due with the tools at hand no matter the situation so I'd be thankful even with a pointy stick should the need arise.
I've seen guys so large that I doubted the usefulness of my 45acp. Odds of needing to defend myself against that are very rare however so I don't often carry the 44mag. In fact I carry a 9mm mostly because of the convenience.
I have a long history of making due with the tools at hand no matter the situation so I'd be thankful even with a pointy stick should the need arise.
Diamondback6
Member
I'm gonna steal a line from moderator Lee Lapin:
Mindset, Skillset, Toolset--in that order!
In other words, it doesn't matter what you carry if you haven't built the mindset and skillset... even a Kill Every Baddie You Can See With One Shot BFG9000 straight out of Doom or Quake II does no good if you choke when the pressure's on, or if you can't carry it with you. Carry the biggest thing you can comfortably conceal and reliably hit with, which will vary from person to person--I'm a short guy who favors 5" 1911's, but that's because of how my hands are built, how I dress and how much work I'm willing to put into understanding the platform and how to get more out of it and effectively deploy it--my choice may not work for you, just as some folks' Glocks or Sigmas or Beretta 92/96's don't work for me (I've tried 'em and they just don't fit my hands or the musculature therein at all well).
This is why we say, "Your Mileage May Vary" or "YMMV"...
Mindset, Skillset, Toolset--in that order!
In other words, it doesn't matter what you carry if you haven't built the mindset and skillset... even a Kill Every Baddie You Can See With One Shot BFG9000 straight out of Doom or Quake II does no good if you choke when the pressure's on, or if you can't carry it with you. Carry the biggest thing you can comfortably conceal and reliably hit with, which will vary from person to person--I'm a short guy who favors 5" 1911's, but that's because of how my hands are built, how I dress and how much work I'm willing to put into understanding the platform and how to get more out of it and effectively deploy it--my choice may not work for you, just as some folks' Glocks or Sigmas or Beretta 92/96's don't work for me (I've tried 'em and they just don't fit my hands or the musculature therein at all well).
This is why we say, "Your Mileage May Vary" or "YMMV"...
LemmyCaution
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It happened 17 years ago. Having it happen once in 41 years is plenty predictive for me. I was thrilled the shooter missed, giving me a chance to get around the corner and unass the scene as fast as I could run.
And I'm resolved not to let a future shooter miss and move in closer for a second try. Part of that strategy involved moving out of the south side of Chicago.
LemmyCaution
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As the insurance salesman says 'It isn't the risk, it's the stakes.'
Don't shoot at me from 25 meters, and I won't shoot back. Can we make a deal on that and peaceably go on living our lives according to our own experience and judgement?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Any distance that somebody is shooting at you is a reasonable distance for self-defense.
I think we're confusing "reasonable" with the distance that it most often happens. Statistically, that was established by the FBI at an average of 21 feet...but I feel like that figure is skewed a little because it was calculated using mostly law enforcement engagements. For private citizens, you can probably figure on about half that distance...under low or no light conditions.
Note that not all self-defense shootings involve both parties blazin' away at one another. You might come to your day of reckoning by defending against an edged or blunt weapon while backpedaling and firing with the muzzle in contact with your attacker's body.
I think we're confusing "reasonable" with the distance that it most often happens. Statistically, that was established by the FBI at an average of 21 feet...but I feel like that figure is skewed a little because it was calculated using mostly law enforcement engagements. For private citizens, you can probably figure on about half that distance...under low or no light conditions.
Note that not all self-defense shootings involve both parties blazin' away at one another. You might come to your day of reckoning by defending against an edged or blunt weapon while backpedaling and firing with the muzzle in contact with your attacker's body.
KodiakBeer
member
I don't know of any guns that shoot less than 25 meters. What guns are you speaking of?
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