My Wife, S&W, and Mr. Road Rager

Ledgehammer · Jan 18, 2011

I'm going to be honest I feel many here are a liitle quick on the draw and could end up in court or worse. Do you know how many dogs bark and never bite? I've had people get out and yell at me before. I say sorry and they left.

First move would be roll up windows and lock doors. Second move try to back out. I find it very hard to believe ge could pin her against a curb without ramming the car. 3rd call the cops with your hand on your weapon. If he breaks your window trying to get you - I would fire at that point.

JEB · Jan 18, 2011

good for her for having the tools and the mindset ready to defend herself!

Ledgehammer · Jan 18, 2011

help cool the car and in her panic tired to put the window up but hit the switch to lower it.

can't figure out how to get the window up - but got her gun out of her purse easy enough? I'm sure a jury wouldn't bat an eye at that. Don't get me wrong I'm glad she's ok but some of these post have fish story written all over them.

kitsune · Jan 18, 2011

...small truck swerved diagonally across her vehicles driver fender essentially trapping her against the curb....

...Neither her or the car behind her...

It sounds like she would have been unable to flee (in her car) without damage.

Guy exercised some freedom of speech, she exercised some 2A... DIDN'T pull the trigger, and everyone went home. Win/win?

I personally would not have brandished a weapon at that stage of a confrontation, but that's up to a jury of peers

Bullet · Jan 18, 2011

Since I’m at home and wasn’t there I’ll point out some mistakes =

She gave the fellow an opportunity to go but when he didn't, she gave a brief toot on the horn to make him aware of the light being green. She said he casually looked into his rear view mirror and proceeded to give her a hand gesture (the finger).

I see nothing wrong with a toot on the horn to get traffic moving but when he flipped her off that should have shown that this person was a nut. Stay away from him.

She stated he then began to very slowly pull across the intersection in what appeared to be an attempt to leave her in the middle when the light changed. She began to move forward through the intersection as well. The light was in the process of changing back to red and traffic to her left had abated so she swung out to the left lane and passed the guy in the truck and got back into the lane she needed.

Passing the nut through an intersection in the left turn lane would probably be seen as escalating this incident. Not the way to handle a nut.

A car was in front of her, he was along side and there was a car moving in behind her. She was essentially boxed in approaching another red light.

Sounds like time to break - slow down - don’t get boxed in.

She still really hadn't recognized she was in danger until the passenger side window of the pick up went down and the man behind the wheel was screaming at her, mostly gender related slurs. At this point she got very nervous.

Poor situational awareness.

She had her window down about 1/4 before all this started to help cool the car and in her panic tired to put the window up but hit the switch to lower it.

Not good at all.

She said he didn't run at her door but was definitely moving in a deliberate and aggressive manner, pointing and spewing profanities at her as he closed the distance. She immediately reached into her purse for her J frame. She stated he was just a few feet away from her window when he caught sight of the barrel coming up at him and he froze. She said his next comment was, "ARE YOU GONNA (expletive) SHOOT ME?!". She said "YES!". With that, he turned, jumped back in his truck and drove off.

If the nut had kept coming and she had shot him for moving in a deliberate and aggressive manner, pointing and spewing profanities at her. No threats no weapon I think she might be in some legal trouble.

Glad she is OK but some things to think about.

GLOOB · Jan 19, 2011

Or course you give a brief tap when someone fails to move at a green light. Yes, there's a chance that they won't act reasonably. But 99.9% of the time they'll be grateful that because of you, they didn't miss the light while they were texting or taking a 10 second nap.

Stevie-Ray · Jan 20, 2011

I agree, the problem is the road rager doesn't agree. I go out of my way to avoid confrontation anywhere I go, in todays society road rage is a real threat. You don't know how the person in another vehicle will respond, they could just move along because you honked, they could give you the finger, or they could try to assault you.

Problem is, a road rager could go off on you because he doesn't like the kind of car you drive; stability isn't his strong suit. I'm not going out of my way to try to pacify every nut that drives. When I started carrying, I started giving the friendly toot, rather than laying on the horn for 2 seconds when somebody is sitting, oblivious, at a green light, and that's about all the pacification some numbskulls deserve to get, obviously this one included. Hopefully the guy wet his pants on the way back to his truck. When is everyone going to understand that keeping your mind on your driving is at least as important as the fact you may be carrying? Vehicles can be far more dangerous than guns. If you are not ready to carry, don't carry. But by the same token, if you can't keep your mind on driving, stay the hell home.

ryanrichmond · Jan 22, 2011

When I first started carrying, I wouldn't hesitate to honk my horn because I felt safer. Then I realized that if I'm carrying a gun, the nutjob in the car I just honked at might be carrying a gun too.
Guns give people a sense of security in both a positive and negative way. I know, at least for some people, that they can feel more cocky knowing they have a heater only a few inches away. What they fail to remember sometimes is that the same sense of confidence they have is shared by everyone else who owns a gun.
I have a feeling he only acted that way towards her because she was a woman. He probably didn't even think that a woman would have the foresight to pack heat. -- just my opinion. Sometimes I wonder if women get in more situations like this because they're not men and people underestimate women all the time.

Ledgehammer · Jan 22, 2011

Sometimes I wonder if women get in more situations like this because they're not men and people underestimate women all the time.

Absolutely they do - just like a lot of guys will only pick fights with a guy that's smaller than them. In my opinion women need to have the best situational awareness simply because they lack the upper body strength to fend off even the weakest man.

A lot of mistakes were made by this woman, hopefully she learned from it.

shootingthebreeze · Jan 22, 2011

ryanrichmond, carrying removes any cockiness or overconfidence; it actually makes me more aware in avoiding confrontation even hitting my car horn at a light change. Now I will use my horn defensively if I see someone running a stop sign.
Carrying brings a different level of awareness and invisibility.

skipjack · Jan 22, 2011

I would have let the nutjob go and waited for the next traffic light
after he gave me the finger. He had displayed erratic behavior,
and I want to put as much distance between him and me as possible.

Hindsight is always 20/20, and I am glad it turned out well for your
spouse. It is fortunate for both parties that the situation did not
escalate.

Situational awareness, and a mindset that I am going to do everything
possible to avoid using my gun are very important to me. The gun
is a last resort option...period. I try to avoid conflicts on the road,
and when walking anywhere when armed. Carrying a gun has not
made me feel empowered; actually it has had the opposite effect.

CornCod · Jan 22, 2011

I am very glad the lady didn't shoot for her sake. At the very least she would have lost her house and any other assets she owned. The very fact of her being a female (and still defined as 'helpless' by our society) would have saved her from going to prison, but the lawyers would have picked your family clean.

c919 · Jan 22, 2011

Road rage is rampant here in Knoxville. It's crazy really. A couple of road rage incidents in my past are pretty much what reminds me that even a trip to the gas station can result in an immediate need for self defense.

If you don't mind my asking, where in Knoxville did this happen?

JellyJar · Jan 23, 2011

Hey everybody, the OP said this:

After nine years carrying a gun for a living

I assume this means he is an LEO so his judgment about the legality of this incidence in his jurisdiction is better than ours.

NavyLCDR · Jan 23, 2011

Is it legal to pull your gun just because somebody is walking at your vehicle in a menacing manner? I agree she should have had a hand on it and be ready, but to that point he didn't threaten her or even touch her and he didn't have a weapon. I think she could have been arrested for brandishing if he called it in first.

The guy purposely prevented her escape from the incident by blocking her car in with his. To me that makes it cut and dried self defense. It eliminates the question of "why didn't you just drive away?"

Deltaboy1984 · Jan 23, 2011

Glad she is ok IMO she was in the Right!

Messenger Guard · Jan 28, 2011

I have discussed the situation at length with our range instructor. He is firmly of the opinion as am I that she would have been completely justified in the use of deadly force. It does not surprise me that she could fumble for the window switch and as a last millisecond decision grab her weapon. My wife has M.S. for those that didn't catch that. Under stress, hitting a window switch is a fine motor skill while grabbing a gun is not (arm versus finger).
My instructor's view was disparity in force (like it or not, this means Man versus Woman) means something in this state. The other driver had chased, made threats (witnessed by the car behind my wife), and blocked her in with his vehicle. He exited the vehicle and moved in what some seem to have interpreted as a less than aggressive manner. This was not the case. As a note to all, NEVER get out of your car to settle an argument. This move by said driver cost him whatever defense he may have had in the legal arena. When he closed to within feet of her window still yelling and looking to all who witnessed, to be out of control, he had met the burden a jury in this state would need for justified lethal defense.
That said, I too am glad nothing more came of the situation. I guess the one thing to take from this is how fast this happened. While we have hours, weeks, years to debate who was right and wrong, the whole incident was over in less than two minutes. The actual life and death moment was truly a moment.

Bullet · Jan 28, 2011

There are three basic elements that must be present before lethal force can be used. These three elements are called ability, opportunity and jeopardy.

While the nut had ability (disparity of force) and opportunity but the jeopardy part in this story was unclear. If threats of harm were made as he approached then I believe the lady would be justified to use force to defend herself. If the nut was just yelling about her driving or just making comments about her (no threats) then I believe her pointing her weapon was premature. Even if there were no verbal threats but the nut tried to physically attack such as trying to punch her then she would be I believe justified in using force to stop the nut.

I’m not an expert and could be totally wrong above but this is how I understand the laws.

A good link about this is here-

http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx

Observer · Jan 28, 2011

She did good. She is safe.

NavyLCDR · Jan 28, 2011

Bullet said:
There are three basic elements that must be present before lethal force can be used. These three elements are called ability, opportunity and jeopardy.

While the nut had ability (disparity of force) and opportunity but the jeopardy part in this story was unclear. If threats of harm were made as he approached then I believe the lady would be justified to use force to defend herself. If the nut was just yelling about her driving or just making comments about her (no threats) then I believe her pointing her weapon was premature. Even if there were no verbal threats but the nut tried to physically attack such as trying to punch her then she would be I believe justified in using force to stop the nut.

According to the OP, the perpetrator positioned his car in front of the victim's in a deliberate manner to prevent the victim's escape. If that was a cop that had done such, the court would rule that the cop had, at that point, "seized" the person, IE: caused the following encounter to immediately become non-consensual. Thus, our perpetrator, in deliberately blocking the victim's escape, had already "seized" the person of the victim; and I, if I were a judge, would have no problem at all using that as fulfillment of any jeopardy requirement for justification for the use of deadly force.

Ledgehammer · Jan 28, 2011

grabbing a gun is not (arm versus finger).

digging in your purse to find your jframe is definitely a fine motor skill. How hard is it to push a button? Most of the power windows I've encountered are a toggle type if you realize it's going down instead of up slide your finger the other way.

looking to all who witnessed, to be out of control, he had met the burden a jury in this state would need for justified lethal defense.

Unfortunately every jury is different. If there are people on this forum who have doubts I can assure there would be some on the jury that doubt too.
I say this because obviously you're a little too close to the situation to view it unbiased. Also your only getting your wifes side of the story.

It's amazingly hard to box somebody in with your car - otherwise cops wouldn't need stop sticks or have to use the pit maneuver to get people to stop. Reverse would have worked just fine.

Bullet · Jan 28, 2011

NavyLT

According to the OP, the perpetrator positioned his car in front of the victim's in a deliberate manner to prevent the victim's escape. If that was a cop that had done such, the court would rule that the cop had, at that point, "seized" the person, IE: caused the following encounter to immediately become non-consensual. Thus, our perpetrator, in deliberately blocking the victim's escape, had already "seized" the person of the victim; and I, if I were a judge, would have no problem at all using that as fulfillment of any jeopardy requirement for justification for the use of deadly force.

"Jeopardy means that the other person's actions or words provide you with a reasonably-perceived belief that he intends to kill you or cripple you."

The above was taken from here -
http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx

I’m not a lawyer or a judge but blocking her car seems to be a stretch to assume this would fulfill jeopardy.
Maybe all the nut wanted to do was yell a little.

Her husband stated in post #42 that she was threatened. I believe the threat would fulfill jeopardy and at that point she could have used force to defend herself.

BleysAhrens · Jan 28, 2011

<...Insulting snark removed...>

If she was prevented from her freedom of movement that is a violation of her rights. If she was blocked in and being a disabled parson what else could she do? I have been told that if you perceive it as a threat that you act as if it is a threat. I'm not saying she was right in pointing it at him, but at least hold it in his direction just below the window. If it was me I would have stepped out of the car and leveled my .40 at his head and told him to leave. Once again keep in mind that the vehicle was blocked in the front and back. Nothing good could come of an angry person blocking your car, or your perceived path to safety. People have been shot for much less.

9mmforMe · Jan 28, 2011

ryanrichmond, carrying removes any cockiness or overconfidence; it actually makes me more aware in avoiding confrontation even hitting my car horn at a light change. Now I will use my horn defensively if I see someone running a stop sign.
Carrying brings a different level of awareness and invisibility.

My thoughts exactly. When I got my CCP in Virginia 15 years ago, I immediately felt more comfortable (not cocky), but also more responsible for my actions knowing that I held the means to end someone's life. I was much more mindful of avoiding trouble and let things just roll off my back that may have excited me before. I don't carry here in IN yet but that state of mind was pervasive and continues to guide me when I'm out and about. Plus I have a little girl who means the world to me and it would break my heart just thinking of not being with her due to being in prison or dead as a result of poor judgement. Presenting a gun worked out well for the OP's wife but you never know how things may go even with having a gun, a car, cell phone and all the spidey sense in the world...being present and thoughtful of my actions all the time seems to me the best bet for not only survival but for proper civility.

Kleanbore · Jan 28, 2011

If it was me I would have stepped out of the car and leveled my .40 at his head and told him to leave.

And you might well have been charged, tried, and convicted.

People have been shot for much less.

And people have been imprisoned for doing so.

My Wife, S&W, and Mr. Road Rager

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

member

Member

Member

Member

Member

member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Similar threads