A word on multiple attackers

Good lighting and situational awareness MAY have helped this poor fellow. He's lucky he only got knocked around a bit.

Maybe I don't see the point. Some situations it doesn't matter what gun you have, like getting ambushed by four individuals. I agree that sit. awareness is the missing key here, not what gun he should have had.

That is if any of this is even true...

Sorry but the moment he stepped out, he was screwed, in that situation, survival is the goal, and you are already way behind the curve.

The story is undoubtedly true, somewhere in America every day, probably even in Caleb's hometown.

It's the conclusion that wears a little thin. But given Caleb's youthful exuberance it is understandable. A little more age and wisdom will temper his thought process. And help him stay safe and alive, no doubt.

Shooting up one's own neighborhood in the darkness with large quantities of firepower surely isn't the first line of defense. Nasser and Buck and Shadow noticed that right away.

Did I miss something? Like say a link to a news article? Major national news story?

Some situations it doesn't matter what gun you have, like getting ambushed by four individuals.

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This is absolutely true. In the given scenario, once you're in a confined space with four aggressive criminals, several armed with firearms, what weapon you're carrying is not going to change the game by very much.

Once he stepped out of his car into their midst, he'd lost the "game," and his survival hinged 30% on his social skills and 70% on their intent and what passes for mercy.

If he had gone for a gun, with those odds, chances appear good that he'd have been killed or seriously wounded instead of injured but left alive. (Yes, he might have killed or wounded one of his attackers on his way down/out ... for whatever that's worth.)

The idea that an average Joe gun owner could step into a circle of four armed criminals who have the element of surprise, and intent to rob/injure/kill, and outdraw and outshoot them ALL, is absurd. "If only he'd had a ... (some kind of gun)," is barking up the wrong tree.

He survived. That means, from the point at which he exited his vehicle, to the point that the criminals departed the scene, he did exactly what he should have done.

...

Now, to make this into a real S&T discussion, let's explore ANYTHING that could have kept him from entering the situation (call it "the trap" or "the kill zone" maybe). Lights, awareness, better general security practices applied long in advance.

Remember, living through a shootout ISN'T as favorable a result as not having one to begin with. So, what do we learn from his misfortune?

I could be wrong, but I think the point the OP was making is that being attacked by a small group of criminals is a very real possibility these days.
And that those who choose to rely upon something like a 5-shot revolver are really putting themselves at a disadvantage capacity wise.

Basically, it's just the another face on the old "revolver vs auto" debate.

And that those who choose to rely upon something like a 5-shot revolver are really putting themselves at a disadvantage capacity wise.

Basically, it's just the another face on the old "revolver vs auto" debate.

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Yes. It is. And that's why so many have said the question is moot, and misses the point. Survival in the face of such an attack has little to do with what kind of gun you brought and everything to do with how well you observe, anticipate, and avoid.

Faced with greatly unfavorable odds, there is little chance for any of us to prevail once shots are fired.

Slightly different view, why step out,
a car offers some protection, rapid exit, and massive wounding potential

Sam1911 has it right. To say he lacked lighting or wasn't aware is all speculation. If 2 guys got the "drop" on you and 2 more got knives you are in a tight spot and drwing for a gun might have gotten him killed or if he was with some one, that person killed also. Scary story glad he made it out to tell the tale.

In light of trying to avoid this trap...I keep a back porch light on all the time. As we arrive I look at the area for signs of movement. As we pull around to park, I shift to high beam so I can see the yard better. If the porch light is out, I pass the house, wifey moves to drive side and I go check the door for break in. Replace bulb.Only had to do this twice.

Still, I know I can't defeat all attack plans. Just trying to see it coming.

Mark

Dont wait to see if you get lucky with the beating. Pull out your carry and advance w/o missing. show no fear.

I live in the middle of nowhere (32 acres) and have come home to find unexplained tire tracks in my drive and the 6" gate post uprooted. It turned out that the neighbors were having their place surveyed and the survey crew didn't feel like lugging their stuff all the way around to the back of the property. So they decided to use my drive for access including breaking down my gate, and, when they got stuck in the sand, used my mountain bike off the porch to stuff under the wheels of their truck for traction. Once I figured out what had happened and contacted the survey company, the owner's response was, "I don't think my guys would do that and I'm SURE you can't prove it." (He was both right and wrong.)

The point is, that when I arrived home with my wife it was a situation that LOOKED hinky. We backed right back out of the drive and called the sheriff. When I went back in it was with 2 deputies while my wife sat in the truck back in town. If you stick your hand in dark holes often enough, eventually you'll find one with something unpleasant in it.

John

Yes. It is. And that's why so many have said the question is moot, and misses the point. Survival in the face of such an attack has little to do with what kind of gun you brought and everything to do with how well you observe, anticipate, and avoid.

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I agree that observation and avoidance trumps one's choice in handgun.
But I disagree that handgun choice matters little.

The handgun one chooses to carry does matter.
And not just in this particular scenario, but in every scenario.

For example....
Who here thinks that they would be well protected with a single-shot flintlock pistol?

Considering that one-shot-stops are about as common as unicorns (and that's with much more potent calibers), and the fact that even the pros miss their target occasionally, a single-shot flintlock pistol is an extremely poor choice for self defense.

When facing multiple targets a high capacity handgun is generally better than a low capacity handgun.
And when facing three or more threats, a five or six shot revolver just doesn't have enough capacity for me.

Faced with greatly unfavorable odds, there is little chance for any of us to prevail once shots are fired.

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Maybe and maybe not.
History is full of real life accounts of men surviving overwhelming odds.

But I disagree that handgun choice matters little.

The handgun one chooses to carry does matter.
And not just in this particular scenario, but in every scenario.

For example....
Who here thinks that they would be well protected with a single-shot flintlock pistol?

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Why go to an absurd extreme? That just forces everyone to couch their terms with tiresome exactness.

"Handgun choice matters little, as long as we're discussing modern, concealable, multi-shot, service grade firearms in good condition firing reasonably potent ammunition at distances from contact out to 25 yds, etc., etc."

I figured most folks knew we weren't discussing 18th century weaponry.

Considering that one-shot-stops are about as common as unicorns (and that's with much more potent calibers), and the fact that even the pros miss their target occasionally, a single-shot flintlock pistol is an extremely poor choice for self defense.

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Ya think?

When facing multiple targets a high capacity handgun is generally better than a low capacity handgun.

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Sure. If you manage to get off more than the five shots in your j-frame before being cut down by the rest of the pack attacking you.

The point here is that among the spectrum of possible successful solutions to this problem, shooting at all occupies a minuscule portion of that spectrum -- and shooting more rounds than an average small concealable gun hold occupies an even LESS substantial portion of it.

And when facing three or more threats, a five or six shot revolver just doesn't have enough capacity for me.

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Hey, my carry guns generally hold more than 5 rounds, too -- and I carry reloads. Why not? They weren't -- and wouldn't be -- the answer to this man's problem.

History is full of real life accounts of men surviving overwhelming odds.

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Yep. And I'd rather have them than need them, and so forth, etc.

But it is a gross error to look at the situation here and spend more than a moment's reflection on hardware solutions to it.

Who were they preparing to invade, and why? The fact that two were armed with only knives suggests they were not after huge rewards, or prepared to die over this.

I used to live in apt. in a blinded area where wife and I learned to be very alert when coming home. Now we have a child in tow, we are more cautious, in safer apartment. can be impossible to get cArry permits here, but we are both aware of need for both to be armed and ready. Wife is nuc. Sec. Officer so comfortable with daily carry.

Today's news is pd caught armed burglar who had been working our neighborhood.

onebigelf said:

I live in the middle of nowhere (32 acres) and have come home to find unexplained tire tracks in my drive and the 6" gate post uprooted. It turned out that the neighbors were having their place surveyed and the survey crew didn't feel like lugging their stuff all the way around to the back of the property. So they decided to use my drive for access including breaking down my gate, and, when they got stuck in the sand, used my mountain bike off the porch to stuff under the wheels of their truck for traction. Once I figured out what had happened and contacted the survey company, the owner's response was, "I don't think my guys would do that and I'm SURE you can't prove it." (He was both right and wrong.)

The point is, that when I arrived home with my wife it was a situation that LOOKED hinky. We backed right back out of the drive and called the sheriff. When I went back in it was with 2 deputies while my wife sat in the truck back in town. If you stick your hand in dark holes often enough, eventually you'll find one with something unpleasant in it.

John

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Were you able too nail these [thugs]?

If he had the time and opportunity, I think "reverse" was his best option. If all he received was a beating I suppose he made out OK and the thought of "Take a hit, go to ground, draw and fire-fire-fire!" might not have worked out so well. (Assuming he was carrying)

Conjecture based on far too few facts... It's described the victim pulling into his "covered drive" ( so I will assume erhem!) that he pulled into his carport and it's probably at side-of-house and close to or connected to the back yard fence. I can see where this guy possibly had around 5-seconds between the time he pulled in and the time he startd getting beaten. That cuts your reaction time down to almost nothing if you have unlocked doors etc.

If you estimate that it takes around 2-seconds to figure out "bad", then another one to two seconds to decide on a course of action... How does the average individual train to handle high-risk operational responses when they live in the suburbs?

Of course, if they're still in front of you as you're pulling in... just pound the accelerator!

I'd rather take my chances with god and a jury and try to put a few gang members in the ground. Experience from living in Philadelphia and Baltimore has made me appreciate that *most* gang members aren't exactly sharpshooters. Now, if we were dealing with some of the gangs around L.A., I would greatly consider revising my statement on accuracy.

However, life is cheap when you've got nothing to lose.

To be more specific, outgunned or not, I will never put myself in the position for a bunch of hoodlums to decide my fate, if I'm well armed or well trained. I have a 4 year old daughter with special needs, and it wont hurt my feelings a bit to spend the remainder of my life in jail if it means her and her mother are able to retreat.

I live in Ohio, and as such, I'm not required to retreat if there is a reasonable threat against my life. Lets not forget that there were four assailants with at least 2 guns and 2 knives. I have around 80 acres, adjoined by several larger land holders. In my situation, if they had the jump on me, Im probably not going to escape with my life. Sure, if I had a dozen neighbors, I might have a reasonable chance at a semi nonviolent confrontation, but I don't. My closest neighbor is over a mile away.

So, with that said, if if forced to do so, I will defend myself and my family at the expense of a gang member(s) life. There are some places left in this country where you don't go pointing deadly weapons unless you intend on using them, and my homestead and acreage is one of them.

I respect all laws, but I assure you that my life and the lives of my family members are worth far more to me than that of some chump that thinks he's tough because he has 3 other armed guys backing him up. With that said, if you want to rant about correctness, save it for a private conversation or another thread. I know my rights, and Im not going to lose a bit of sleep if I ever have to use them.