CZ-52 vs. TT-33

Which 7.62x25?

  • CZ-52

    Votes: 149 64.8%

  • TT-33

    Votes: 81 35.2%
  • Total voters
    230
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I frequently carry the CZ in lieu of a rifle because I can get 6-inch groups at 300 yards.

Now *that* I've just got to see to believe, because the one I have could barely manage that at 300 inches.

Neither Winchester nor S&Bs published ballistics tables for that round include ranges past 100 yards, but just assume you get a 400fps falloff every 100 yards, so by the time the 85gr pill reaches 300 yards it's piddling along at about 400fps and about 30ft/lbs of energy. Even if you figure it started at some whacky number like 2000fps, that's still less than 800fps at that range, and the holdover won't even let you see your target unless it's a Mack truck . . .

jm
 
Ok, I did some more research at the makarov.com page.

It looks like if you purchased the hardened rollers, maybe a spare barrel, and the new springed fire pin to prevent breakage and lower the trigger pull, and shoot only the current Romanian surplus, things will be ok? I see that the prior thread was theoretical overloading, and not the question of "How durable is a well maintained, somewhat upgraded CZ-52 shooting only surplus, non-submachinegun ammo going to hold up over many thousands of rounds.

That is my question. After all, no point in selling that surplus by the 1200 rnd tin if your gun will self destruct halfway through.
 
Both are good as long you use factory spec ammo. get the one that shoots best for y ou.
 
It looks like if you purchased the hardened rollers, maybe a spare barrel, and the new springed fire pin to prevent breakage and lower the trigger pull, and shoot only the current Romanian surplus, things will be ok?
Click to expand...
I've heard of one failure of the original rollers, most of the problem with the rollers stems from an aftermarket barrel supplier who sold rollers with the barrels that were too soft.

The original barrels were fine, never heard of any complaints with them. Aftermarket barrels were also ok other than the roller problem above.

The firing pin is cast steel. It will NOT tolerate dryfiring but holds up well under normal use. If you are a cautious person you can replace it with a forged aftermarket part for around $20 or simply buy an original replacement part for around $10. I had spares for both of my 52s and never used either one.

I've shot my CZs with a variety of ammunition and never had an issue of any kind. The triggers aren't the best out there and the sights are what you'd expect on a 50-60 year old design but they're reasonably decent gun otherwise.
 
Thanks for the feedback. This sort of feels like the people who ask Mosin or Mauser and the answer is always "both".

Any lines on the distributor with the best CZ52s in stock? I see:

Southern Ohio Gun claims very good to excellent for $125
J&G Sales has very good plus for 139.99
Florida Gun Works says they are in "new" condition but for $229 (plus optional $15 handpick? You could almost buy two from the other sites for that price!)

Any thoughts on those dealers, or others I missed?
 
I use Romanian surplus for my Tok, but my CZ52 does not like the hard primers. I get frequent FTFs.

The CZ is happiest with S&B and Wolf/Prvi Partisan.
 
"I frequently carry the CZ in lieu of a rifle because I can get 6-inch groups at 300 yards."

Now *that* I've just got to see to believe, because the one I have could barely manage that at 300 inches.

If ya gotta see it to believe it, you're welcome to come visit. If you can't throw a two-inch group at 25 yards, you have my sympathy.

Not my fault you bought a blued rebuilt piece of ****.

Win or S&B ballistics? You got to be kidding me!
I chrono my own. The closest any of them come is close to 200 fps to reality.

um, did
 
85 or 86 gr S&B or Polish surplus ammo comes out of a Tokarev or CZ52 at around 1450 fps

At 300 yards, that bullet is 796 fps and has dropped 131" from the line of the bore. In a cross wind of 10mph it has drifted 16". It has 120 foot pounds of energy and a pf of 67.

If the kill zone of a coyote is 8" high, then the accuracy must be +/- 4"
That requires range estimation to within 2.5 yards.
It also requires velocity consistency within 23 fps, which is the powder measuring accuracy equivancy of .06 gr.

Hitting an 8" kill zone at 300 yards would be like hitting a ping pong ball at 100 feet, if it not for the wind and trajectory.

I once sniped out the window at a coyote in my yard that was 100 feet away. He walked unharmed right through the middle of the pattern of 00 buck shot.

If I were going to pass off a story about hitting a coyote with a CZ52 at 300 yards, I would register under a new identity, to protect my credibility.
 
Problem is

We're dealing with probabilities here. It is possible he shoot at a Coyote at 300 yards, and did hit it and killed it. Not probable though.

The proof load thing is a design/engineering staple. You over engineer something to hopefully avoid catastrophe due to an unfortunate alignment of the stars.

You get your hands on a Monday/Friday gun.
You get some ammo right at the maximum pressure
It's 105 degrees F out side.
etc. etc.
and
Kaboom
Topg.jpg


The CZ52 is especially scary if you consider the variability in the metallurgy. It isn't that well made a pistol. To top it all off , you have an internet rumor that it is an uber strong pistol. Nobody knows where this rumour came from, but it has absolutely no basis in fact, and ironically the most usually reason stated for the supposed strength is the main reason the 52 fails as it does (the roller locking mechanism).
 
Last edited:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....39aa83b00e1/3b8a25f2529aacb1#3b8a25f2529aacb1

Clark Magnuson

==========================================================
A) The "CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev" myth in print
========================================================
1970:
From the U. S. Army Foreign Science and Technology Center's publication
titled "Small Arms Identification and Operation Guide - Eurasian
Communist Countries", (FSTC-CW-07-03-70), page 211, Table XI, Cartridge
Data and Color Codes, in reference to 7.62 x 25 mm pistol ball type P;
"Do not use Czechoslovak-made ammunition in TT-33 pistols."

1996
rec.guns FAQ by James Bardwell ([email protected])2/18/96
" The CZ-52 uses a 8 round single stack mag. It utilizes a roller
locking system to safely use all sorts of Tok ammo, from less powerful
loads for the Tokarev pistol, to very powerful loads meant for this
handgun (Czech M48 round) and also for PPSh submachine guns."
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIC2f.html

1995
"Sierra 50th Anniversary Edition Handgun Reloading Manual"
"..the Vz24 is an extremely strong pistol. Reload developed for pistols
using less robust locking systems must be reduced drastically for safety
reasons. In recoil operate pistols, such as the Tokarev, starting loads
shown should considered maximum,"

1995:
From the American Rifleman magazine, August 1995, page 44;
"The Czech version of the 7.62 x 25 mm cartridge is based on the Soviet
7.62 mm Type P pistol cartridge used in the TT-30 and TT-33 Tokarev, but
Czech ammunition is loaded considerably heavier that its Soviet
counterpart. While dimensionally similar to the 7.63 Mauser cartridge,
inter changeability is not recommended as the commercially loaded Mauser
ammunition is considered too light to reliably cycle the Model 52."

When I wrote Sierra in 2003 about this, they wrote back:

Rich wrote:

" Clark,
Thanks for the information.
We would be interested in some details if you have time to share
them. Obviously Kevin (the author) was referring to the locking
mechanisms and not the barrels but we certainly are interested in your
findings. They may save someone the experience you have had with these
guns.
Rich" [Machholz]

2000
Ted Curtis ballistician at Accurate Arms in March of 2000:
"7.62 X 25 Tokarev ..
Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered
for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load
data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In
determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested
various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the
Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier & Bellot was also
tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our
lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was
significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent
pressures between all other type sand manufactures was a welcome
surprise . Indeed, the fact that CZech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol,
produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps
the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal
lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it
claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will
causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo
tested certainly doesn't support this theory."

AA has not returned my emails on the subject of me blowing up CZ52s with
their loads and powder.

2000:
"Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading Fifth Edition" 2000
"Automatic pistols for the 7.62mm Tokarev were essentially knock-offs of
the Browning-designed 45 Automatic Colt Pistol, though both imitation
and some original design contribute to the Soviet auto. Our CZ-52
pistol, one of many recent imports, was both strong and well made."

2003"
Gun World" May 2003, Jan Libourel writes, "Pressures with this
cartridge [7.62x25mm] tend to run high, especially with some of the very
hot Czech loads designed for the sturdy vz52."

When I wrote him, Jan wrote back:
"Thanks for the info. I have never done any shooting to speak with the
7.62x25, so I was just passing on the "conventional gunwriter wisdom" on
these matters. This is not necessarily the truth, as you point out. Thanks
for the info.
Cordially,
Jan Libourel"

2007
Shotgun News Jan 1, 2007 "Tula Tokarev" by Peter G. Kokalis
"Czech M48 7.62x25mm ammunition should be avoided in Tokarev-type
pistols, as it was design for submachine guns and the very strong,
roller-locked vz52 pistol."

Shotgun News has not returned my emails on this subject.

=========================================================================
B) The questioning of the "CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev" myth on
the internet
=========================================================================
2000
1) I blew up 2 CZ52 pistols that split the barrels and took pictures.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4927&d=1059258212
2) Ken Marsh, long time rec.guns contributor, pointed out that the crack
propagation seemed to start from a think spot in the chamber chamber
where there was undercutting for space for the roller blocks.

2003
1) Jaque Clarke "Uncle Jaque", a CZ52 owner, makes a drawing of this
thin spot. Here is the drawing:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=47360&d=116269...
2) I am unable to blow up any of my Tokarev pistols, with what blows up
CZ52s and much more.
3) I buy a broom handle 1896 Mauser 30 Mauser to compare to CZ52
strength. It blows primers, but does not blow up at the loads that blow
up CZ52s. I cannot go higher with these primers.

2005:
1) John Becrovitz, long time rec.guns contributor, buys 10 CZ52 barrels
and tests them for hardness. Measurements between RC25 and RC35 were
taken on intact 7.62x25mm barrels. A more modern 9mm CZ52 barrel tests
at RC47.

2) Accurate Arms "revised" their hot loads for the CZ52 only. This
example is for 110 gr SPR RN 1.3":
a) The hot load from 2000: 11.7 gr AA#9 41,800 c.u.p 1688 fps
b) The wimpy load from 2005 8.5 gr AA#9, 34270 psi, 1248 fps

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun
click on "30 (7.62)"
click on "7.62x25 Tokarev"

"Lynn,
As a result of various technical reasons, the data in the initial print
(year 2000) of the no 2 guide were not tested against a verifiable
standard or protocol.
As a result wrong conclusions and assumptions were made. The result was
that the initial loads were too high.
The recent adjustments were made in two phase’s i.e.
a) A Reduction in velocity to conform to the correct barrel length since
the initial velocities was for a 9” test barrel.
b) The adjustment of the actual charge weights to conform to the only
Specification/protocol in existence i.e. CIP “Commission International
Permanente” which is the authority, since this caliber does come from
Europe.
This pressure limit is : <2400bar or 34809Psi.
The final loads as published on the website are thus inline with these
standards.
However, due to the strong design of the CZ 52 pistol, people have been
using ex submachine gun(i.e. PPsh-41) ammunition from the eastern bloc,
which obviously were loaded to a much higher levels, and some of these
will function in the CZ 52 pistol. However, there is ammunition that
will even destroy the CZ 52.
Although the CZ52 gun can handle much higher pressures than some other
weapons it has never been incorporated into an official specification.
The strength of this gun is renowned, which lead to many “estimations”
of performance and a reputation of being able to handle just about
anything out there on the market.
This is obviously not true and we deemed it necessary to conform to the
official International specifications for the cartridge.

Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistic Lab manager
Accurate Powders"
Click to expand...

I put John up to that.
I knew that he had free access to an RC hardness meter at JPL.
I put up most of the money for the barrels.
 
I have fired 2 1/4 inch groups at 50 yards with my CZ52. It the most accurate handgun I have ever seen. I REALLY wish someone would manufacture a modern gun in 7.62x25. It is an impressive round.
 
I think someone should make a barrel for CZ52s with a thicker chamber and out of good steel with good heat treat.

Here I made a new barrel for a Tokarev from a Parker Hale 308 Sniper trainer bull barrel:
attachment.php
 
CZ52 Opinion

My brother has a TT-33, I have a CZ52. He wishes he would have bought a CZ52 when I did. I did not have the money, at the time, to buy a TT-33, when he did. I am 6'3" tall, 175 pounds. The CZ fits my hand, and has a perfect angle, (a personal thing). The TT did not, again, (a personal thing).
For either, surplus ammo is cheap!!! Never had a problem, except a heavy cleaning job, with corrosive primers. But it's easy with such a small system.
What were most of these type of guns used for, close range, point blank assassinations, self defense, etc., etc. They are great, cheap plinkers, and can be for home defense. Use cheap, made for it ammo, and no problem. You want a hand cannon, that will cost you more, there are plenty of semi-auto choices out there. Have fun with it, play, enjoy life. I do have some soft point ammo, as opposed to (surplus ball ammo), great for small game/varmints. Original barrels, for cheap, can be purchased from, The Sportsman's Guide, while they still have them. They also have case hardened firing pins, while they last. I bought 2 spare barrels, and firing pins, just a couple of weeks ago. Have not tested them all, yet, but they all measure up, and look good. But the barrels do not come, with the roller locks, cam, and pin. But they can be found at TDWSales.com.....
 
Thanks, for all you do to ruin the 7.62x25mm

Clark:

Looks like this thread has come back to life so.... :cuss:

If your idea of fun is blowing up guns, I'm not here to talk you out of it. What I WOULD like to talk you out of, is contributing to one of the worst problems we have in the firearms business: good cartridges dying of terminal progressing wimpiness.

Manufacturers are ALWAYS looking for an excuse to load down their ammunition, for a variety of reasons. For those of us who don't handload (used to, shoot too many different cartridges, and not enough of any one to make it worthwhile), the availability of good factory loads is important. You seem to have devoted an amazing amount of effort to disparaging the CZ-52 in a way that obviously argues for reduced pressure commercial ammo. Part of the reason we see new cartidges is that old and serviceable ones are "wimped" into uselessness, effectively orphaning the weapons designed for them. Somebody designs and sells a gun that is marginal for the load, old shot-out antiques are still around, or people start fixating on the limitations of a particular gun (e.g. poor chamber support in Glocks), and we start seeing wimpy commercial loadings. For some rounds, +P loads are the answer, getting us back to or above the ballistics the cartridge was designed to produce - but the 7.62x25mm isn't going to get commercial +P loadings, even if all they would do is get back to what we have now.

Don't do this to the CZ-52 (and other guns that shoot the 7.62x25mm). These guns have been successfully shooting the commercial and military ammo generating around 40,000 CUP for a lot of years. You seem intent on getting that down to around 30,000 CUP. The lawyers will be delighted. The shooters less so.

Fortunately I have a pretty good supply of S&B ammo, which my two CZ-52's eat like candy. I'll be able to use the CZ-52 as my desert carry gun when I'm out prospecting, and shoot them a bit too (they ARE accurate!). PLEASE don't ruin it for the people who haven't got one yet or don't have a lifetime supply of ammo stored away.

Don't take this as a rejection of your interests - I enjoyed reading your experiences and learned from it. All I'm asking is, don't make destroying the reputation of the CZ-52, and the 7.62x25mm generally, into your life's work.

For anyone else reading this old thread - the CZ-52 is a fine weapon. Most examples are accurate, and the ammo is flat-shooting. It may not be the ideal carry gun, but it will do. Like loop, I find it ideal for the desert - I don't worry about it getting dirty, sweaty, or banged up when I'm digging, climbing, etc. It is accurate and flat-shooting enough for longer range shots, and over-penetration isn't the concern that it might be in town. Those bottle-neck rounds funnel into the chamber every time, and S&B ammo always goes bang. The issue sights are servicable even for old bifocal guys like me. I carry it cocked and locked in a Triple-K shoulder rig made for the 1911. Mountain lions and men are the biggest preditors we see in the desert down here, and if they don't get the drop on you, the 7.62x25 is a servicable defense against either.

Don't buy one sight-unseen unless you have to. If you don't know guns, have someone who does look over the example you're buying. These are old surplus arms, and there are going to be bad ones (the ones I've seen were fine.) Don't dry fire it, and if you use the de-cocker / hammer drop, ease the hammer down while pointed in a safe direction (and be careful re-engaging the safety!) About the only thing wrong with the CZ-52 is that you can't buy 7.62x25mm ammo at Wal-Mart...

AUgie

P.S. to the short-rangers out there: handguns are FINE for longer shots. Saw my son hit a prairie dog dead center at 81 yards, first shot, with a Springfield XD in .45 ACP (we lasered the distance after the shot.) Have seen him hit all kinds of targets to out near 100 yds with various pistols, often on the first shot. I can't do that with any regularity, but some people can, including, I'm guessing, people who post here. I'll have to try the CZ-52 at 300 yards some time & see if loop's full sight hight correction is enough elevation, and whether I can get something you'd call a group, if not as small as loop did!

Okie-Dokie, grabed a CZ-52, made a quick measurement of sights and see that loop's hold-over corresponds to about 145 inches at 300 yd. Clark says you'd get 133 inches drop at 300 yards. Sounds to me like loop JUST MIGHT have been telling something disturbingly close to the truth (Clark too for that matter.) Was meaning to get the CZ-52s out to the range anyway to verify a sight tweek I've been meaning to do, to get 'em "dead on", something I'm doing for all my fixed sight pistols - I'm getting too old to remember EXACTLY where each one shoots! I'll re-spray a silhouette, or hang a paper, out at 300 yards, and see what the CZ52 can do.

AUgie
 
Tokarov Safety

The original Tokarov does have a Safety. If you half cock the hammer *which I can see alot of people taking their Tokarovs right now and trying this* you cannot move the slider back on weapon, I mean you can really pull very hard on it and it will not move without fully pulling the hammer back. Ive also tried to see if you can pull the trigger with the weapon like this and no luck.
 
I has a CZ-52 for a few years but never could warm up to the ergonomics regardless how hard I tried. I installed a Hogue Monogrip but it only helped so much.

I later purchased a Tokarev due to what I considered an excellent price (Yugo M57 w/2 magazines and holster for $189) and was astonished at the difference. I really don't know what the deal is since the grip angle appears similar, but the M57 feels completely different... very much night and day. I sold the CZ-52 after purchasing a 2nd M57 and was pleased with that one as well.

Mark me down solidly in the TT-33 camp.

Similar grip angle but a world of difference
5063773686_0bfcea1e6c_z.jpg

Outnumbered and replaced
5063169645_c43f710c0f_z.jpg
 
New thread: "Oh no, not this again... talk about beating a dead horse, learn to use the search function"

Old thread: "Oh no, not another necro-thread"
 
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