SA vs. DA for Defense

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verticalgain1

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Hi all.

I may have dreamed this up, so feel free to educate me on it, but I recall hearing somewhere that it's harder to prove a shooting was self-defense if you fire your weapon by cocking it and shooting it single-action.

It seems to me this would be a better idea, as it would be easier to place the shot given the added stress of the situation. Every little bit helps, I would assume.

Or does cocking the weapon make it seem more malicious? Maybe DA seems like you shot fast because it was a situation of "It's going to be either me or them".

Or maybe I'm up too late and imagined hearing this somewhere.

Feedback would be appreciated.

--Justin
 
The correct answer is a question. Did you believe the person you shot intended to cause you or another death or great bodily harm?

What you are suggesting means that saying "stop or i'll shoot" makes it premeditated murder.
 
If we're talking about a single action revolver, be it an NAA mini or Colt SAA/clone or Ruger somethingorother, standard practice is to cock during the draw.

If we're talking Condition 1 auto (1911 or similar operating drill), the standard is to sweep the safety off by thumb during the draw. The steps needed to bring it to the same level of readiness is therefore very similar.

Not surprising: the US military was using Colt Peacemakers (SAAs) right up until the introduction of the 1911, and the vaguely similar manual of arms (esp. on the panic-draw) was no doubt a selling point. Yes the military had migrated away from it for 38cal DAs in the late 1890s, but bad experiences with 38 ball ammo in the Philippines had caused a reversion back to SA 45LCs and even out to 1911 - 1914, a good number were still in service.

Either way, this "extra step means murder" theory falls completely apart. The thumb sweep of either hammer or safety becomes completely second nature on draw, for those dedicated to mastering these types.

On SA revolvers, it's not uncommon to continue holding the trigger back after the first shot, and fire the gun by thumbing the hammer back and slipping the thumb off sideways to release it. This is known as "hammer slipping" and allows a fast series of "DA" shots performed with the thumb instead of the trigger finger! Believe it or not, accuracy can be very respectable that way and sighted fire is possible...this is NOT the same as "fanning" the hammer with the off-hand.
 
I've heard a bunch of these... if you use handloaded ammo, you'll be charged with murder... if you use a customized firearm, you'll be charged with murder... but I've never heard of an actual case where these things played. My take is, if it's a justified shoot, it's a justified shoot. If not, don't shoot.
 
I'm with antsi. Show me the case data. Lots of boogey man scare-mongering, but i've yet to see any facts to back any of it up.

- Gabe
 
Thanks

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

Like I said, it didn't make any sense to me either. It's good to see that as stupid as gun laws are these days, at least they aren't THAT stupid yet.

Thanks again,

Justin
 
The argument goes that cocking the weapon led to an accidental discharge, not murder. It is used when a plaintiff is going after insurance, which will pay for negligence but won't pay for an intentional act. The plaintiff argues that you didn't intend to fire, but did so accidentally after cocking the hammer.

It can also be used when the prosecutor in a criminal case doesn't think he can get a conviction on murder, but tries to show that you were commited negligent homicide. Your statement that you had to fire and did so will be construed as an attempt to cover it up.
 
Have a read through Masad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme" (I think that was the title anyway).

He goes into the criminal (jail) and civil ($$$$) ramifications of shooting in self defense and makes recomendations for equipment that minimizes your liability.

I believe he made an argument about single actions or cocking double actions that relates to "hair triggers" and intention to shoot.

Its been a while but I selected my first pistol based on his advice: a DA/SA semi auto with a saftey decocker (HKUSP40)

The long DA pull for the first shot follwed by the shorter lighter pull for subsequent shots was preferred for both civil and criminal liability.
 
A lot of agencies adopted the DA/SA based on the same thinking. The director of the FBI firearms training unit stated that the DA first shot was intended to make sure the first round was fired intentionally. If more than one round was fired, you were in a firefight so the next ones needed to be SA.

Personally, I don't give a flip either way. I've carried cocked and locked, squeezecocked, Glock cocked, and trigger cocked. Sounds like the next porn quintet now that I look at it.
 
No matter whether or not these rumors are true, wouldn't you want to play it safe and go with an uncocked DA/SA? You never know when you're going to get a runaway jury.

Like what Highlander said, I heard from a LAPD cop that they're supposed to carry with the hammer down for legal liability issues.
 
I doubt it will matter.

Use language like I heard on the discovery channel on a hostile hostage entry.

"I observed the suspect bringing his pistol up to fire, at which point I placed my finger on the trigger of my MP5 and began to fire.

I subsequently observed the suspect release the pistol and drop to the ground, at which time I removed my finger from the trigger and stoped fireing."



Even if the truth is (most likely) something like "Oh jesus, he lunged at me with the knife, and all I remenber is the pee running down my leg, and the empty gun going 'click' after I guess I shot it all into him.

<humor>

Prosecutor: "but you emptied TWO magazines!"

Guy Who's Still Alive Because He Had a Gun And Used it: "he twitched!"
 
No matter whether or not these rumors are true, wouldn't you want to play it safe and go with an uncocked DA/SA? You never know when you're going to get a runaway jury.
Click to expand...


Uhhhhh....

DA: Did you have your weapon cocked prior to shooting Mr. Smith?

You: NO!

Problem solved...
 
No matter whether or not these rumors are true, wouldn't you want to play it safe and go with an uncocked DA/SA?
Click to expand...
I shoot better with a single-action, so as far as I'm concerned that is playing it safe.

The 'legal liability' boogey-man is just an internet rumor as far as I can see. Some people take it seriously because a PD or two mandates their officers carry hammer-down for liability, but where's the evidence? Where are the prosecutions?

Unless someone can show me that someone somewhere has been screwed for making a good shoot with a SA over a DA, I'm not buying.

- Gabe
 
Uhhhhh....

DA: Did you have your weapon cocked prior to shooting Mr. Smith?

You: NO!

Problem solved...
Click to expand...

Uh, no. Ever seen a cross-examination? The whole point of it is to show that the witness' story is false, either deliberately or unintentionally.
 
Why is it that so many people go on about how X feature of a gun will increase your legal liability, but none of them can come up with a single smidgen of actual evidence to back up their point of view? :rolleyes:
 
On pages 28-29 of The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, Masaad Ayoob writes:
Some [prosecutors] found it expedient to "make examples" of politically incorrect shooting of bad guys by good guys. For this, they needed a hook.

Contrary to popular belief, prosecutors don't get big occupation bonus points for winning a conviction for murder instead of manslaughter...

...To convince a dozen people with common sense sitting in a jury box that a good cop or a decent citizen has suddenly become a monstrous murderer is a pretty tough sell. But to convince them that a good person could have been careless for one second and made a mistake is an easy job, because every adult has done that at some time.

...It is common knowledge that a light trigger pull -- what a lay person would call a "hair trigger" -- is more conducive to the accidental dischage of a firearm than a long, heavy trigger pull that requires a deliberate action. Cocking a gun, or pointing an already cocked gun at a suspect, could therefore be seen as negligence. Now the key ingredient of a manslaughter conviction was in place.

It reached a point where prosecutors would actually manufacture a "negligent hair trigger argument" even in cases where the gun was never cocked.
...
And that was just in criminal courts. On the civil lawsuit side, something similar was happening. Plaintiffs' lawyers realized the deep pockets they were after belonged to insurance companies, not individual citizens involved in self-defense shootings. Almost everyone who shot an intruder had homeowner liability insurance, but such policies specifically exempt the underwriter from liability for a willful tort, that is, a deliberately inflicted act of harm. The lawyers could only collect if the homeowner shot the burglar by accident. Thus was born the heavy thrust of attacking guns with easy trigger pulls, and of literally fabricating the "cocked gun theory of the case." Private citizens who kept guns for self-protection and were aware of these things began to see the advisability of double-action-oly autos as well as revolvers for home defense and personal carry.
Click to expand...
 
How could you possibly get charged with negligent homicide if you meant to shoot someone? Is the judge and jury going to stick their fingers in their ears when you testify that you deliberately pulled the trigger to defend your life?
 
There's that obvious point, Demise, and the fact that Ayoob didn't cite a single case to prove his point. It's all just conjecture.
 
The legal boogeyman is going to find you no matter what. If the prosecution decides to go after you, it doesn't matter one bit what you were carrying.

I'll pose another question. Can you give me a gun ammo combination that is 100% legal boogeyman proof? It doesn't exist.

I find it odd how good people in this country have decided to arm themselves against lawyers at the possible expense of their life or the life of their loved ones. It truly is a sad day indeed.
 
There have been a number of instances where a law enforcement officer unintentionally shot a suspect without justification after cocking his/her service revolver, thereby lowering the trigger pull from around 12 – 14 pounds to around 3. In other instances the officer deliberately shot a individual, with complete justification for doing so, but a bottom-feeding lawyer brought a wrongful death civil suit claiming (with no proof) that the officer had cocked his gun and the shooting was unintentional rather then deliberate. As a result some of the major police departments – Los Angeles and Miami come to mind – had their issue S&W and Ruger revolvers converted to double-action only, and/or purchased sidearms that came from the factory as D.A.O.

With the switch to automatics some departments requested, and obtained D.A.O. pistols from makers such as Beretta and SIG.

If an individual citizen (as well as a police officer) were involved in a shooting, having a D.A.O. handgun would provide some insurance against the “you really didn’t mean to do it†argument. What one has to do is decide if the obvious advantages in a lighter pull vs. marksmanship issues is worth the extra legal risk. There are good arguments on both sides, but when some of the biggest police departments in the country change to D.A.O. because of the trouble and expense of lawyer harassment it’s obvious there is some fire under the smoke.
 
Given that the statements are not being offered in court for the truth of the matter, they cannot, by definition, by considered hearsay.
 
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