Lever-Action Elephant Gun

i think the biggest worry would be about extraction of a sticky case when faced with a animal that may eat or stomp on you if not killed right now. and over all lenth may be a problem with feeding, i read teddy roosevelt however like the winchester 1895 in 30-06 and win 405. eastbank.

i have a browning blr in 7mm-mag that seems to handle pressure very well,but at top end the lever is a little stiff to operate, my win model 70 with the same reloads eject with out any effort.i think it has to do with the camming action of the bolt as you open it, has the bolt moves the case backwords as the bolt cams rearwords. the camming action puts more power to the case extraction. eastbank.

Pigoutultra said:

I don't see how in a good design, sticky cases would more of an issue than with bolt-action rifles. I see you're point with overall length being a problem. I don't understand why there haven't been more bottlenecked cartridges designed for lever-actions, because in a tubular magazine, overall length is the limiting factor, unlike in a box magazine where cartridge diameter is the limiting factor.

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Aside from the 30-30, 35 Rem, 25-35, 219 zipper, 38-40, 44-40, 32-20, 25-20, 218 Bee, 356 Win, 307 Win, 338 Marlin, 308 Marlin - all of which are bottlenecked and used in tube magazine lever actions.

Has anyone thought of how much better a lever-action would be compared to a bolt-action for a safari if they had about the same power.

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I suspect the issue is largely that the bottom fell out of the Safari gun market a long, long time before metallurgy allowed for lever gun lockwork that could reliably take the strain of African dangerous game loads.

Plus, of the miniscule fraction of hunters who ever invest the money to go on an African safari, figuring split times on follow up shots is less of an issue since they've got a professional hunter standing by to back them up.

End result -- there's just no market. Unlike bear defense, which people invest a good deal of effort into -- and where 45-70 lever guns are extremely popular.

The problem is not the guns or the cartridges they chamber but popular perception. No one is more narrow-minded and staunchly defensive of their position than the double rifle crowd. Fact is, the .405 in a modern 1895 is very much the equal of the classic stopping rifle cartridge, the .450/.400 Nitro Express. A little light for elephant but certainly adequate for anything else. Ditto the .45/70, .450AK and .50AK in a strong action.

...figuring split times on follow up shots is less of an issue since they've got a professional hunter standing by to back them up.

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This has always been the case. It is silly at best to believe that hunters intentionally rely on their PH backup to bag game but stuff like this gets repeated all the time.

What I meant was large caliber cartridges of .44 caliber and up. I am very much aware of the smaller caliber bottlenecked cartridges.

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If you use a bottleneck .44/.45 round, then the case would have to be progressively larger. Which would require a larger mag tube and action.

I think the gun might get to be a hand full quickly.

45/70 Govt. loaded to MAGNUM levels by Garret Cartridge and fired in a Marlin 1895.

or

.475 Turnbull http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=20788

Craig Boddington mentions them both in Safari Rifles II

Terry Weiland also mentions them in Dangerous Game Rifles 2nd Edition

I'm leaning towards the Ruger 77MKII in 458 Lott myself.

Has anyone thought of how much better a lever-action would be compared to a bolt-action

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Nope. Never occurred to me. Even now, I don't see the "better" part.
Browning BLR is available in 450 Marlin and 300 Mag. You could get the 300 and rebarrel it to something bigger.
As far as a lever-action 460 Weatherby, I don't know where you'd start. If you do it, post pictures.

Hizzie beat me to it, check out the .475 Turnbull.

I've wondered myself why there hasn't been perhaps a .45 caliber lever-action that propelled a 400 grain projectile at 2300-400 fps.

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There was the .458x2 American that got close to that and could shoot 500 grain solids. Also the .50 Alaskan. The .450 Marlin and hot loaded .45-70 +P get close as well. But the trouble is these leverguns are just the wrong platform for true elephant cartridges. They're very light weight and packable. For rough timber where you have NO gun bearers.

A levergun could be made to do the job, but it would get heavier and the action would have to get beefier. It would then cease to have many of the advantages that make leverguns useful.

Think of it this way. When you increase the size and power of a cartridge for a bolt action rifle, you can still use the same safari-size '98 receiver as the base. Or something similar. Very easy to find, and making it is as simple as attaching a custom barrel. But for lever actions, EVERYTHING has to change. I really saw this when I had to deal with a number of teething problems on a '94 Big Bore that had been customized to fire .450 Marlin. Every step of the way from loading the magazine to feeding into the receiver, lifting and then feeding into the chamber required tweaking to make these huge rounds fit. Granted that's not the biggest levergun receiver, but the problem remains. Even with a streamlined design like the '99 you'd have to seriously rearrange the innards to make it work with big slugs. If you even could. The '95 WIn with its box mag is more adaptable to the large rounds, but then again it's a heavy beast and rather sluggish in the hand.

I'm not saying it's suitable for elephant, but Beartooth Bullets has come up with a 405 grain bullet for the .44 Magnum, including the .444 Marlin.


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm?main=book.htm

(Look under .44 caliber and then go to the very bottom of the list.)

It would have about the "right" sectional density at .314, but it wouldn't have enough cross-sectional area to give me the warm fuzzies for use against elephant. Also the muzzle velocty is about 2100 fps, and that's after some modifications to the Marlin to beef up the strength.

I mention this because this round seems ballistically similar to the obsolete and little-known 11.2x72 cartridge used in some versions of the bolt-action commercial Mausers of the past.

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sea...berid=69&header=11.2mm Caliber Reloading Data

Supposedly the old Schuler round was up to the task of elephant. This cartridge had a muzzle velocity of 2400 fps max and a 401-grain bullet of about .440" diameter, as opposed to the .429" of the Marlin. It also had a rebated rim, which makes me wonder about possible chambering issues. Though it had a little more surface area than the Marlin round would, its sectional density FWIW would only be about .296. A little less than what I would even consider for elephant!

The new .444 loading may not be ideal for elephant but IMO it may come pretty close! I think that whatever the Schuler would be useful for could be replicated by the newer .444 handload.

Pigoutultra,
Do a google search on the .510 Kodiak Express.
That just might raise an eyebrow for you.

Marcel Hendricks took an elephant with a Savage model 1899 in .303 Savage; makes me think that hunters with lever action guns have been bringing down elephants for some time.

a hunter killed a bengal tiger in india with a .22 high power in the 99 savage too, but i think a wise man would not try. i think you could kill any animal on earth with a very small rifle bullet if you wait for it to blink,yawn or fart and shoot for the opening. eastbank.

I have to say my 450 Alaskan loaded with 525gr lead GC at 1950 is very abusive to the shooter.

Marcel Hendricks took an elephant with a Savage model 1899 in .303 Savage; makes me think that hunters with lever action guns have been bringing down elephants for some time.

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I recall reading that W.D.M. Bell would at times, for reasons I don't recall, take lung shots on elephants, then after they ran off, place his ear to the ground and listen for them to fall. My guess is that's how the gentleman killed the bull with the 303 Savage.

I don't claim to be an expert on African cartridges, but I don't know why a 45-70 or 450 Marlin using a 400 gr. monolithic solid wouldn't work for elephant.
Brian Pearce of Rifle magazine used a Marlin 45-70 for cape buffalo. As I recall he used a hard cast 400 gr. flatpoint bullet.

Here's a neat write-up regarding the 45-70 Compared to other Dangerous Game Cartridges. In the article, Pearces kill with the 45-70 is mentioned.
35W

Why not a pump action. Maybe the market wouldn't support it either. I like my 30-30 but I wouldn't like to shoot it in a 30-06, much less an Africa big game round. If I was spending big money on a safari, I'd want a reliable proven action with a more positive extraction and feeding system.

I think there's a type of Goodwin's Law for references to Bell in big bore rifle threads.

Theodore Roosevelt (he hated the nickname Teddy, his friends and family called him "Thee") used the .405 on lion. He mainly restricted its use to the big cats because the available bullets of the day, for lack of a better word, sucked. Not unlike the modern Hornady version, which I will no longer use on deer. Those from Woodleigh are vastly superior. I have to disagree about the 1895's handling, there's nothing "slow" about it, particularly compared to a big bore boltgun.

Even now, I don't see the "better" part.

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Quicker on the followup shot. Something a wee bit important on the dark continent. Of course, boltgun fanciers who haven't spent much time with a lever are in denial over this fact.

I like the .510 KE but I don't think it is suitable for elephant at all, it's velocity is less than a .500 NE, it is very similar to the .50 Alaskan, but I like the .450 Alaskan more due to its higher velocity.

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Velocity takes a distant backseat to sectional density and bullet construction. A couple hundred fps isn't really gonna make much difference.

I'm not saying it's suitable for elephant, but Beartooth Bullets has come up with a 405 grain bullet for the .44 Magnum, including the .444 Marlin.

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This is actually a very good suggestion. The later model Marlins have the twist rate to stabilize them. The 355's are a good option too.