Iknow this has been done before, but AK or AR?

What rifle should I choose?

  • Arsenal SGL-21

    Votes: 39 30.2%
  • AR of some sort (probably a RRA.)

    Votes: 73 56.6%
  • Some other rifle (list below.)

    Votes: 17 13.2%

  • Total voters
    129
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... @Quentin: So what's wrong about my assumption with AR's? ...
Gus McCrae covered them quite well... thanks Gus!

dcarch, buy whichever rifle your research leads you to. Don't trust just one source of info - like your buddy who has a problem with one individual rifle. You can't extrapolate his experience to cover ARs in general.
 
That's just it -- the AR is less reliable than the AK because it requires "reasonable care" to run well; whereas with an AK, it can be used and abused almost indefinitely without any cleaning and still run like a clock. Even the best AR needs to be cleaned every 1 or 2 thousand rounds or so to ensure reliable function.

Pure internet BS.

You can shoot an AR without lube for 2.400 rounds before it might choke. That's ten basic loads of ammo, and the standard for the soldier is to shotgun it and wipe it down daily, regardless, and put oil drippy wet into the upper cam pin channel. Nobody posts a AK doing it. The gas residue would also build up and clog piston travel, too. Both shoot ammo with residue, it's not going to mysteriously be cleaner because the piston is on the barrel.

The "religious cleaning" is BS adopted by armorers and approved by Commanders so the weapon will be ready to ship or issue at a moments notice. The armorer doesn't want to do it, the Commander needs to fill a training day schedule, and his command chain doesn't want to buck inspectors checking the readiness levels of his unit on a simple gig like "weapons were not maintained to standard." That's a peacetime arms room long term storage situation, not combat.

If you wipe it down and lube it, an AR will run like a clock and fire for over 50,000 rounds - as documented by an AR instructor with one of his class loaners. That is a carbine class gun, getting a thousand rounds a weekend through it, and beat against doorways, dropped on the range, knocked about, and handled by folks who've never shot one in combat before, trying to learn how to do so at combat speed. Strangely enough, the milspec guns in those classes perform to standard, just like the millions of milspec guns used by the military in combat. They don't choke and die because of the design, it's operator neglect or a lack of maintenance, like changing the action spring every 5,000 rounds or so. In fact, the biggest stoppage producer in the M16/M4 are mil metal magazines - and the Marines in A-stan exclusively issue Pmags now.

On the flip side, a blanket pass on the AK for reliability whitewashes the reality that some makers selling in the US have a reputation of making unreliable malfunctioning guns. Ask around, search posts on that, you will find "Why doesn't my AK chamber a round?" and half a dozen other defects. I wouldn't question the reliability of a milspec issue AK, but those are NOT imported or sold here. They are largely parts guns that DO have some problems, just like some AR's built with non-milspec parts and then shot with low dollar import ammo - dry as a bone and not broken in.

One consideration is that at least with the AR, you have a high level of producing parts to a single pattern, where you can buy and assemble one none of it coming from a single source, but a dozen. And it will work. The AK? Not so much, each country's production is different, they won't even interchange magazines, and some aren't finished even to their standards - it's for export, send them the marginal parts, Americans will buy anything.

With the AR, you mostly get made in American, and those who mostly make an AK in America have to price there's about the same. It's the cheap parts guns imported that have the dollar store pricing, and fit and finish to match. If you want to compare apples to apples, a $950 AK is a good gun; don't expect a $450 AK to be anywhere as good as a $599 Bargain Bin AR.

When you get past the myth and internet rumor, you find you get what you pay for, the AK in America doesn't really have inherent advantages in reliability unless you are willing to insure it's milspec, not an imported cobbled up kit. It's just the same for the AR, it's just that we despise what we're familiar with, and look to the grass that just seems greener on the other side.
 
You never stated what you plan on using the rifle for. Are you planning on benchrest shooting, plinking, planning for some post apocalypic wasteland (hee hee). Get the gun that matches your needs.
If you are planning on putting a scope on the rifle then an AR has the advantage. There's more aftermarket accessaries for the AR and the buttstock is the right height if you're using a flat top. The AK's stock is a bit low and the scope mounts are a bit high. Your cheekweld isn't as good. It works ok but the AR is better if you're mounting some form of magnified optics.
Sturmgewehre has a good vid on YouTube about mounting a red dot on an AK. It seems like the mount soaks up a lot of heat though.
Your buddy may have a very good rifle but if he has to clean his AR constantly to make it run then something is wrong. I don't know about your friend's rifle but Olympic is not considered one of the better AR manufacturers by the AR community. I don't think I would base my opinion of all AR's on an Olympic rifle.
AR's are made in America by over a dozen manufacturers. Most are pretty good guns but there is a difference in the weapons even though they all look alike on the outside. For more info I would look at www.tacticalyellowvisor.net , Sturmgewehre's channel on YouTube and www.vuurwapenblog.com . There's a ton of good info out there.
One thing that I don't like about the AK is that most are assembled from parts brought into the US. They basically cut up a rifle and then someone here reassembles it. Quality seems to be all over the map although there are some very good companies such as Arsenal and Krebs. Of course you pay a lot more for these rifles. All of the cheaper AK's seem to come with a warning about looking for sloppy mag wells, canted front sights, keyholing (Tantals) and a host of other problems. Of course they all shoot but that seems to be a low requirement. I'd probably get an Arsenal if I was buying an AK. I would feel confident and well armed if I was using an AK and there's nothing wrong with the weapon. I just prefer the AR for my purposes at this time. To each his own. They are both fine weapons. I will say however that when I buy a firearm I expect it to be right and I don't expect crooked front sights, bad barrels or sloppily cut magazine wells. I would definately buy a higher end AK (and probably will sooner or later since I eventually get around to owning about everything).
Let's talk about AR reliability for a minute. There's over a million AR's out there in civilian hands and it's one of the most popular sporting rifles on the market. Someone is doing something right. Of course when someone gets a $1000 lemon then he wants the entire world to know. There's also a lot of people showing up at the range with lousy builds that don't work right. Everyone sees an AR and assumes the design is faulty instead of the individual rifle being a badly built frankengun. I've had experiences with a friends AR that fell into this catagory.
Then there's a lot of people like myself that are prior military. The rifles we used are abused in ways that civilian rifles will never be (even in peacetime activities). Let's put aside all of the crazyness like using a rifle as a step for someone to climb over a wall and just talk about the cleaning. Those of us that were in the military did a lot of stupid things to get our weapons "Clean." Bear in mind that the military's idea of clean usually doesn't match that of the civilian world. It's excessive and bad for the weapon. How often do we use carb cleaner, Spic & Span and all of ther other improper materials on our personal weapons? Those in the military often go overboard on their weapons because the level of cleanliness is unrealistic. This is not good for the rifle nor is the dissassembly that many do. I know that we used to strip our weapons down far beyond what is recommended and necessary.
Then there's magazines. Most reliablity issues with semi autos are mag related and I never saw a single mag taken out of service while I was in the Marines. If you got a jam you cleared it and called your rifle a POS. No one ever numbered their mags and no one ever disposed of a bad magazine.
Every machine that is non disposable has a maintenance schedule. Your car has recommended oil changes, your heat pump gets serviced, etc. On the other hand most military rifles are run until they fail. Once they fail repeatedly some parts may be replaced (or not). There is no 5,000 round service on a military rifle (the military is actually looking at some form of rnd counter for M4/M16's though just to address this issue. We're broke and it will probably never happen).
All of these things that I listed above contribute to ex military men and women getting out and spending the next 20 years trashing the AR / M16 / M4 platform. This is part of the reason why some believe that AR's are merely safe queens that only function when they are spotless and able to pass a white glove test.
 
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Who cares? Buy what you want? Buy both? Get a pistol?

It's the same rehash over and over. I understand you are new to the rifle side of this site, but honestly, every one of the threads end up the same. A search of past threads would have given you the exact same results as this thread shows. Either one, built well, will be a great rifle. Either one, built like crap, will be mediocre at best.
 
As far as intended us goes, this rifle would be used for a lot of purposes, from range work, to home defense (although my 870 is my preferred HD gun), to coyote hunting (they're actually pretty pesky out here), and yes, I suppose if the apocalypse were to take place in Iowa, it would be my go-to gun. :D Now that Spike's Tactical really has me interested. What are those like? I might end up going with one of those. I guess if there aren't any major reliability problems with the AR's out there, I would would be inclined to go more with a U.S. weapons system than with a commie bloc system. Any more info on the Spike's Tactical would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
gun flipper... could you pm me the details on that ar? I am interested in what stocks those are and sights etc. What bi-pod is that?
 
Also to the original question.. Everyone is going to have a different take... I have shot a couple deer with 223 and it can be devastating depending on round and range so don't take it too lightly. If I had to choose one I would go with the SGL because very often Arsenal rifles go up in value. The SGL 31 is fine also, my first one was so-so but my last one is pretty darned good. AK's get a bad rap but they are accurate ENOUGH. BTW the best AK ever brought into the country is the SAIGA 308 and if I am wrong on that I am not off by much.

With AK's: Cheap Ammo plus Cheap Mags = RUN, while with AR Cheap ammo + Cheap mags = FAIL

I don't feel safe with a rifle that doesn't have a solidly attached reciprocating bolt handle for me to kick open if I have to.
 
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AR would be the way to go

You could get more caliber choices. Personally I would get a .308 AR. This is a highly versatile weapon.
 
As far as intended us goes, this rifle would be used for a lot of purposes, from range work, to home defense (although my 870 is my preferred HD gun), to coyote hunting (they're actually pretty pesky out here), and yes, I suppose if the apocalypse were to take place in Iowa, it would be my go-to gun. :D Now that Spike's Tactical really has me interested. What are those like? I might end up going with one of those. I guess if there aren't any major reliability problems with the AR's out there, I would would be inclined to go more with a U.S. weapons system than with a commie bloc system. Any more info on the Spike's Tactical would be appreciated. Thanks!
Spikes is very close to the TDP (ie. mil-spec) for an unbeatable price point, lifetime warranty, no brainer.

I've got about 1500 rnds through a middy, not a single failure.
 
AK in the summer time and AR in the winter...Alaska sure is purty, but it gets too cold there in the winter months. :p I voted other, cause I like NC...er, I mean a VZ.58 better than both. ;)
 
i have both-


AR's IMO are pissy with ammo, oil and cleaning..... besides the fact i feel that im going to hurt them when they get abused. they dont stop hogs as well as my AK( reloads)..... they have a ton of **** to bolt on and mod. i see them for 500 bucks new. JSE surplus has cheap stuff.

i love my AK's. they just dont screw up. i ran some axle grease on the bolt, and wont worry about them. i have 3-4K through a few that have never been cleaned. i like their sight picture and point well for me. they always go bang...... and if/when they dont they are simple to diagnose quickly.

for people who say AK's arnt accurate i was blasting beer cans @ 125 yards offhand standing. i have shot out to 400 yrds with mine screwing around........they have great punch. they are easy to build/make/maintain/fix. lots of "fudge factor" is allowed. you can buy one new for 350 bucks, or build your own unregistered easily.
 
the only reason i would chamber an AR in 7.62x39 would be
A) coolness factor
B) shoot the metric **** ton of ammo i have for my AK's :laughing:
 
Get the AR. You can build it as your feelings change. If you decide you want to get another upper, you pop two pins, pull the upper off and slap another on. They are the most versatile rifle I have ever owned. As far as 5.56, it is effective. Shot placement and barrel length are important.

My AR is an extremely accurate rifle.
 
I've never shot a reliable AK. I don't know where their ruggid reliability comes from, because allmost all AK's I've seen thus far are complete junk. Parts breakage, canted sights, Chinese build quality. If anyone can name some 100% quality AK's.....I'm all ears.

Either way, I don't see much in terms of reliability from any bargin bin AR or AK rifle. Quality costs.

If the AK's mechanical system really impresses you. Then look towards the Scar, ACR, or 556. Same rail and piston style as the AK, with ergos and foregrip options more like a modern AR.

Get a good AR if your after reliability, but require accuracy and modern optics and grip stance. Not some cheap Bushy or RRA. Stick to Colt, BCM, Larue, LMT, Noveske and you'll have flawless reliability. Not to mention better accuracy, ambi use, mags, and sighting options than an AK system.

Just because one mytical weapon still works when it's stuffed with mud deosn't seem like a good way to judge weapon systems. I don't plan on treating any of my firearms with the shameless level of abuse that most applaud the AK for with standing. Sorry, but I like my fingers, I think I'll not abuse my firearms.
 
I have both...I like the AR better for accuaracy an fit, an I've shot them for so many yrs. an in the Army....I like the AK for plinking an bump firing....I run my AR dry, dry dry....its going on 500 rds. without cleaning....the MAK90 got cleaned an 55 rds later got a jam....go figure right.....neither of these are my favorite though. If you don't like the AK, an .223 is too small for busting through stuff for you, then go with a CMP M1 Garand, its well within your price range, an $$ left over for ammo....an its a Battle Rifle.
 
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IDK why i cant quote..... but


@ ol'scratch-
shot placement is key, i agree with an AR. i like being able to still drop something with my AK and have some "fudge factor"

@ zerodefect- its all relative. find me ANY gun that is 100% reliable. you WONT eventually.
i have dabbled in the AK gig for a while, and have a hard time believing that your finding "broken" parts. it also depends on who builds the gun. what broken parts do you speak of? i have had nothing but good luck with any of my AK's i have built. some need a little love- but on the other hand all of my AK's have been cut in half twice with a torch, and the newest one i own is 1987....... so its not like im using a brand new AR that has "some" tolerances compared to my AK's where they have been subjected to HORRIBLE conditions in some other country- who knows how many people have died at the other end of my AK's.

i will say that getting a decent optic is a hard time on an AK, but i use iron sights for the most part for all of my hunting for the most part. i like the challange more than anything. IMO grip stance is almost identical. infact, i have a SAW grip on my AK, and it feels nice :)

i use my guns in real world stuff- not just sitting in a safe and going to the range. i use them for all sorts of hunting, and in all sorts of scenarios. in vehicles, boats, on foot, (soon to be helicopter) for hunting pigs and deer (and whatever else) i have fallen in deep mud with my AK, almost completely submerging it in thick clay mud..... big deal.
i dont worry about dings/scratches/paint/knicks. i use them (i dont try and chop down trees with them, but if they get dropped/thrown in a truck bed im not gonna cry about it)
thrown it over fences-
accidently ran over it with the jeep-
shot all sorts of ammo in it- corrosive, modern, steel, brass, etc.etc.
it just keeps wanting to shoot. i can fix it with a grinder and a welder.


i would rather not have to worry about abuse and worry about shooting, rather than worry about abuse and hope it shoots later.


@ nalioth- i was talking about building (legally) with ungegistered 80% receivers. thats what i was talking about.....

then again you can build an AR with a 80% receiver if you feel up to the task, but it aint NEAR as easy as an AK to build.
 
i'm an AR man myself but as stated above a QUALITY AK is a great rifle that is the thing don't think a $300 AK is bullet proof i've seen LOTTS of them break so if you decide to go with a AK get a good 1!same with AR's get a good 1 and you'll be happy i have an issue of S.W.A.T. that has an article"filthy 14" about a BCM AR15 that ran for 31,000rds with out cleaning only lubed it my AR's run great in fact i run my BCM middy pretty hard from time 2 time and the part about putting it in the mudd and them still shooting i have no idea no way i'm putting any of my rifles in a mud hole no a AK not a mini14 not an AR....why would u do that?
 
Bravo Company Manufacturing:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

A manufacturer of very high quality and very reliable AR's (I rely on one as a duty carbine) that are a little bit--but not ridiculously--above the pricepoint you mentioned.

I checked the zero on my BCM yesterday after having removed and reattached my Aimpoint to it a few times. The Zero had wandered a smidge; but the carbine (a 16" barrel with a mid-length gas system) put the first three rds of 55 fmj into less than half an inch at 50 yards from magazine prone.
 
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