Is Philiadelphia really this bad?

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In my opinion, yes, Philly is at least that bad. Remember, what you are hearing within much of that audio recording is how they behaved KNOWING they were being recorded.

If there were no recording, it would be his word against theirs, and there would be no evidence. People would be crawling out of the woodwork to claim that the story is all bogus or greatly exaggerated.

He has been through this before, and has learned the value of carrying a recorder while carrying. So he does.

Philadelphia wrote the book on corruption. From the Police Dept to the Legislature, from the criminal justice system to the Mayor's office, Philly is off the hook.

You can say what *you want about the recording and the citizen, but the LEOs' behavior speaks for itself, loud and clear.

*you meaning anyone-you.
 
i can't speak for philly but i imagine every big city will have cops who don't care about the law or citizens, that is almost inevitable.
 
You have to love how the citizen speaks politely to the officer, the officer is using all the profanity and then says the citizen is being disrespectful.

Sent from my android via tapatalk
 
While Pennsylvania IS an open carry state, you can ONLY open carry in a city of the first class (which is only philadelphia) if you have a valid concealed carry permit.
 
This series of recordings was a very poor reflection of LE on so many levels. It's disturbing to hear.
 
I'm a regular reader of one of the PA oriented firearms discussion boards, and the Philly PD has a reputation at best a 1/2 step above the Chicago PD's, and they're rapidly closing on the Chicago PD when it comes to outright criminality, including the same sort of organized armed robbery ring operating INSIDE the Philly PD that operated for years inside the Chicago PD.

The problem is a culture of lawlessness that starts at the very top. PA has state preemption of firearms laws... something city government has studiously ignored. That's where the PD is getting its cues.

Philly just keeps getting sued over and over. They're being sued right now by people with valid out of state CCW permits, who were falsely arrested and their firearms stolen.

My perception of Philly is that they have the sort of police department they do, precisely for the same reason that Chicago does. They LET it happen then did nothing about it until it was too late and hideously difficult to do anything about.
 
so exactly what IS the law concerning these things?
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Strictly speaking, in Pennsylvania the police have no legal reason to even stop & question someone who is open carrying, as it has been held by the state Supreme Court that merely carrying a gun is not reasonable articulable suspicion of having committed a crime.

See: Commonwealth v. Hawkins

The Commonwealth takes the radical position that police have a duty to
stop and frisk when they receive information from any source that a suspect has
a gun. Since it is not illegal to carry a licensed gun in Pennsylvania,4 it is
difficult to see where this shocking idea originates, notwithstanding the
Commonwealth's fanciful and histrionic references to maniacs who may spray
schoolyards with gunfire and assassins of public figures who may otherwise go
undetected. Even if the Constitution of Pennsylvania would permit such
invasive police activity as the Commonwealth proposes -- which it does not --
such activity seems more likely to endanger than to protect the public.
Unnecessary police intervention, by definition, produces the possibility of
conflict where none need exist.
Contrary to the Commonwealth's view, the public will receive its full
measure of protection by police who act within the restraints imposed on them
by Art. I, § 8 of the Constitution of Pennsylvania and this court's relevant
caselaw. Upon receiving unverified information that a certain person is
engaged in illegal activity, the police may always observe the suspect and
conduct their own investigation. If police surveillance produces a reasonable
suspicion of criminal conduct, the suspect may, of course, be briefly stopped
4 In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S.
§ 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. See Ortiz v.
Commonwealth, ___ Pa. ___, ___, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a
license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the
Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license).
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There have been several LEOs killed in the last 12 calender months. This certainly heightens the LEOs sense of danger and wanting to get control of a situation. On the other hand people see or hear perceived police brutality and figure all cops are thugs thereby destroying trust and respect. It is a self feeding cycle. Respect for law enforcement is lost creating less than respectful confrontations and police see pedestrians with an attitude. Both sides lose.
 
Dirty cops like these should be imprisoned for life. I agree with Sky that there's a cycle, but perhaps some action needs to be taken to break that cycle.
 
I agree with Sky that there's a cycle, but perhaps some action needs to be taken to break that cycle.
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No action need be taken, in fact, all that needs to happen is for the police to LEAVE OPEN CARRIERS ALONE. What ever happened to simple observation? Uniform gets a "man with a gun" call, all he has to do is locate and observe said man from a distance, see that he's not threatening anyone or otherwise engaging in unlawful behavior, and depart. No reason to get involved at all. None.
 
Impressively tough tape recorder!

To some extent it does appear to be a set-up, though that department is known for its systemic corruption. The guy is lucky this wasn't one of the *really* bad cops, or he'd be deep in a pre-dug hole. As it is the officer was unprofessional and didn't have good control of the situation. But if you have a nervous officer pointing a firearm at you, that's not the time to bandy words and fish for your wallet! Palms up. The arguments can come later.
 
No action need be taken, in fact, all that needs to happen is for the police to LEAVE OPEN CARRIERS ALONE. What ever happened to simple observation? Uniform gets a "man with a gun" call, all he has to do is locate and observe said man from a distance, see that he's not threatening anyone or otherwise engaging in unlawful behavior, and depart. No reason to get involved at all. None.
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It seems like this particular officer did not know the laws in PA and sincerely (at least initially), believed that open carry was illegal in Philly. So in the officers mind, that's why he stopped him because he thought he was engaging in unlawful behavior.

However, the officer's approach (and supporting officers) seems outrageous throughout. This individual seems to be polite, follow instructions, and TRY to identify himself and clarify the situation. The officers however, seem to do nothing but escalate, endanger, and then start altering their story (which you can hear in the background of the recording!). Why would an officer approach someone by saying "Hey Junior"?

And boy, the officers were really ticked when they realized they were being recorded.
 
It seems like this particular officer did not know the laws in PA and sincerely (at least initially), believed that open carry was illegal in Philly.
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If I "sincerely" believed that I could carry into a liquor serving establishment in Ohio, an Ohio cop still wouldn't hesitate to arrest me for a felony. He wouldn't care one whit whether I KNEW it was illegal, only that it was and that I'd done it.

The "too many laws for the cops [but NOT the citizens] to know" argument needs to be ruthlessly stamped out everywhere we encounter it.
 
The "too many laws for the cops [but NOT the citizens] to know" argument needs to be ruthlessly stamped out everywhere we encounter it.
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I didn't make that argument. We agree, it's unacceptable that this officer didn't know the law. It's equally unacceptable that no one he seemed to engage or call knew the law either. I didn't mean to imply justification with the use of the word "sincerely".
 
I lived in Philly for two years, and hated every minute of it. If I ever had to live there again, I'd not leave the house without carrying.
All the statements above about the police being, well, unimpressive, are more than justified.
 
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Why would you want to open carry in Philadelphia?
1. You open yourself up multiple times to getting killed by thugs who will hit you from the rear because they want your weapon.
2. If someone has something against you or wants to rob you they will just shoot you first.
3. The police have it tough enough, why would you want attract this type of attention?

Just because it is legal don't make it smart....
 
General Geoff said:
Irrelevant. Please don't derail the thread, this is about police misconduct regarding people lawfully carrying guns, not about the perceived pros and cons of open carrying.
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Maybe to you but it is not irrelevant to the cop who is trying to do his job, protect others and stay alive in Philadelphia.
 
The question is completely irrelevant because the cop should know the law. If he's not doing anything illegal, he shouldn't be pointing a gun at the guy. His first move should be to ask for his license. And the cop should KNOW THE LAW. If cops don't know the law, they have no business being on duty. I realize that cops can't possibly memorize each and every law out there. But they have no right to make up the rules as they see convenient for the situation. Gun laws should be one of the major things that cops should be trained to know. Especially since open/concealed carry has been a hot topic lately.

The guy was within his rights. If he chooses to sue, I have little doubt he'll win.
 
Maybe to you but it is not irrelevant to the cop who is trying to do his job, protect others and stay alive in Philadelphia.
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If he was trying to do his job, then he'd have left the open carrier alone instead of illegally harassing him. It is not, repeat, not the police officer's job to critique a private citizen's method of carrying, as long as it's legal.


His first move should be to ask for his license.
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By that logic, the police should stop every car on the road, to make sure every driver is licensed. Absent any suspicion that he's unlicensed, the assumption should be that he is licensed.

His first move should have been to observe the open carrier for any criminal behavior, not confront him.
 
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