Blunt force truma vs cutting?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Carl Levitian

member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
1,160
Location
Maryland
I notice here, that a great many carry a cane, while others seem to lean toward a knife for personal defense when a firearm is not possible. I sometimes like a knife as maybe a very very dire situation back up to the back up, if the cane and pepper spray fail, but I just don't have the faith of a knife stopping an attack except in very weird circumstances.

I remember reading about Sir Robert Peel, when he was setting up the very first police department, in London. He was torn on what to issue the new policemen, a sword was being considered. Pistols of the day were the unreliable single shot type. One of his new policemen was a former sailor in the British Navy. He advised Sir Robert to go with a short stout club. He told of ship to ship actions at sea where the common seamen went for a belaying pin even when there were cutlasses available. The belaying pin was good solid oak, was a familiar item to the sailors, and was more intuitive to use, and was more effective on the spot because of the broken bones and joints in inflicted. Sir Robert went with the short club and rest was London Bobby history.

It seems like with today's insane political correctness, an innocent looking impact tool would give better plausible deniability if push came to shove, and questions had to be answered. A nice heavy Maglight, a hammer handle that was going to be replacing the cracked one on the hammer back home, a walking stick, the large ratchet handle laying on the floor of the truck.

So, impact tool or knife? Your own favorite?

Carl.
 
Pap always said a long p --- elm club out does a short blade almost every time......

I vote blunt force trauma,....as I am more likely to have something inocuous like that lying around that I can get to faster than a good fighting knife......
 
I always have a knife on me--well, except when I fly (before 9/11, I even had one then). Sure, they can be used for SD, but frankly I'd prefer a second gun as a back-up weapon. But knives are just plain useful--as any paleolithic anthropologist can tell you, where there were humans, there were knives.

Whether you prefer an impact weapon or knife, take a class! Knives and bludgeons are per se deadly weapons, but a good class can teach you how to use either in a non-lethal way...and can document that knowledge for you, should you need at sometime in the future to show that you meant to inflict the non-lethal injury that you did.

One thing that a knife fighting class will convince you of: guns are great! In a knife fight, you will get cut.
A nice heavy Maglight, a hammer handle that was going to be replacing the cracked one on the hammer back home, a walking stick, the large ratchet handle laying on the floor of the truck.
Never lie. If SD was one of the reasons (or the main reason) you chose to carry something, don't go all cute with the "I've been carrying it on me for the last two years, to repair the hammer at home." In fact, don't say anything if you end up using it, until you've talked to your lawyer.
 
I will take a cane or walking staff anytime. They will give you a reach advantage over a knife. I stabbed my bayonet instructor in Boot Camp through the bicep because I had practiced knife fighting for many years. But give me a staff/cane anytime. In Kung Fu I took staff training and came to appreciate its abilities.
 
I notice the local Hell's Angels, who are mostly senior citizens around here, all have a ballpeen hammer or a fire axe pin on their attire. I presume to guess why !
 
Blunt force has the advantage of producing an immediate stun effect. The disadvantage is it takes more strength and a bigger swing to do it. It's also doesn't work as good against some of the softer parts of your body.

A knife requires less strength and less of a swing but there's no immediate stun effect(usually). With proper technique and training, you can produce immediate effect but you need to be precise with your cuts and your knife needs to be razor sharp.
 
With experience as a homicide detective I have seen considrable trauma caused by various objects. I found that a human being CAN be badly stabbed or cut with an edged weapon and continue fighting for a while. The blunt force trauna caused by an impact weapon tends to stun the body quickly and reduces nerve-muscle interaction.

On occasion, I have encouraged older folks to purchase and carry a stout cane or a longer "hiking stick" for self protection. This enables them to keep agressors further away and serves as a visible deterrent. Knife skills take time to develop, not everyone has the will for it, and one must have both agility and speed to be effective. Canes, clubs, etc. do not require much for the user to get good results and it "empowers" older folks a little.

As a baton instructor, I found that new police officers quickly developed basic baton skills and retained them. More advanced techniques are eye-openers as to the batons potential for physical damage and its' incapacitation effects. The good baton user will overcome the knive wielder unless totally surprised.
 
A club may have an advantage but they don't really work well when jogging, at the office, etc. Old guys can carry a cane around the office, I guess, but unless I'm in my pajamas I've got a knife on me. Plus knives are far more useful in the non-weapon sense.

The best weapon is of course the one you've got with you when you need it.
 
With experience as a homicide detective I have seen considrable trauma caused by various objects. I found that a human being CAN be badly stabbed or cut with an edged weapon and continue fighting for a while. The blunt force trauna caused by an impact weapon tends to stun the body quickly and reduces nerve-muscle interaction.

I can definitely back that up. At the ER where I used to work, I saw plenty of stabbings. Sometimes the vic would walk in under their own power, even if they died later. There are limited cases were a stab hits very specific arteries or the heart that do kill fast, but even in those most lethal of wounds, it can 30 second later when the vic dies and collapses. A lot can happen in that time. And what happens when deadly force was not appropriate? Knives can scare, and they can kill, but that leaves plenty of gaps on the Use of Force continuum. And to have a proper SD toolbox, you need to have options for all of them.
 
He was torn on what to issue the new policemen, a sword was being considered. Pistols of the day were the unreliable single shot type. One of his new policemen was a former sailor in the British Navy. He advised Sir Robert to go with a short stout club. He told of ship to ship actions at sea where the common seamen went for a belaying pin even when there were cutlasses available. The belaying pin was good solid oak, was a familiar item to the sailors, and was more intuitive to use, and was more effective on the spot because of the broken bones and joints in inflicted. Sir Robert went with the short club and rest was London Bobby history.
Police chiefs have many criteria to evaluate when issuing weapons to the force. Sir Robert Peel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Peel got his office in a time when the public was calling for reform. You can read the Peelian Principles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles and see that Sir Robert did not want a killing squad running around the streets, dismembering innocent and guilty alike.

There is no doubt that a club can kill, but an edged weapon would give a wound that would most certainly kill the individual, by infection if nothing more. Cuts were very dangerous back then.

Incidentally, enlisted Seamen hardly got any weapons training. A belaying pin would work very well for hackers and thrashers. And for cops.
 
you can't carry an asp anymore than you can carry a 10" stiletto switchblade

Statements like that come from a deep ignorance of the facts.

The facts are that laws on what you can and can not carry vary from state to state. Do not assume that the laws in your state apply to anyone else's.

I can carry an ASP in my state (TN)because of my training but not a "10 in. stiletto". A pal in a bordering state (AL) can carry that big switchblade, but not my baton. Know your carry laws and don't assume they apply to everyone.
 
Last edited:
As much as I enjoy the back and forth of these points of view, in some ways they don't accurately reflect what actually occurs on the street when you're scared to death and in the middle of sorting things out (as a young cop many years ago my initial training level was very poor - thank heavens that was sorted out with experience and the proper training I received years later...). Whether the weapon is a knife, club, blackjack, (or any other blunt instrument that's available), pray your opponent isn't in a liquored up or drugged up (or combination of the two) state that renders them pretty much impervious to pain. You can find yourself in a situation where your strikes only serve to enrage not subdue. It's one thing to think about from a distance but up close with lots of blood and snot it just isn't funny to find out that your best techniques just aren't working.... There's a reason that many cops are killed with their own weapons.

The best defense is to either withdraw (if possible), delay things until you have overwhelming numbers on your side (basic stuff, stall them until help arrives), or prepare to shoot an un-armed individual to save your own life, with all that will mean after the fact.

It sure would be nice if a solid strike to a non-lethal point would end a problem, the exceptions to that can keep you up at night if you've ever been there.... Glad I'm out of that line of work.
 
I carry a knife for self-defense, but I have no doubt at all that a quarterstaff is the more effective weapon. I suspect that a short club is also more effective, for the reasons you mention.

That said, I can't very well go to class with a 1.5m quarterstaff without attracting a whole lot of attention. Clubs are even less likely to be received positively, and are not easy to conceal. (If you can legally carry a concealed, collapsible baton, lucky you).

A 3D maglight, for instance, weighs 0.85 kg, is about 3cm diameter, and 31cm long. By way of comparison, my (rather large) folder weighs 0.13kg, is not more than 1cm thick, and is 13cm long (closed).
 
Your best defense again any human powered weapon is distance. Any object that can create distance is better than one that doesn't. I have not been in a knife fight...thank god...but I have seen them. There is never a winner, just one guy who is bleeding less than the other guy. That is why I carry a handgun, it is the ultimate distance creator, it works from up close to across the room. I do carry a less than Lethal tool as well, with my cane or the Perrin change purse. Both are legal to carry anywhere ion the US and both will serve when lethal force is not needed. The best thing to do when a confrontation starts to develop is to leave.
 
I can definitely back that up. At the ER where I used to work, I saw plenty of stabbings. Sometimes the vic would walk in under their own power, even if they died later. There are limited cases were a stab hits very specific arteries or the heart that do kill fast, but even in those most lethal of wounds, it can 30 second later when the vic dies and collapses. A lot can happen in that time. And what happens when deadly force was not appropriate? Knives can scare, and they can kill, but that leaves plenty of gaps on the Use of Force continuum. And to have a proper SD toolbox, you need to have options for all of them.
You CAN disable with a knife if you cut tendons...or you can cause vision issues either due to blood or due to direct cutting of the eye. There are ways, but it takes more skill.
 
Technique

I've played a little baseball (badly) and softball (meh).

I've played with guys who could apply a bat to amazing effect.

Me, I can hit a pitched ball now and then, and a softball most of the time.

Now, baseball/softball isn't combat. Neither is tennis or badminton.

Nonetheless, even with something as simple as a sport where you swing a stick, it can be seen that training and practice can make a dramatic difference.

We won't even talk about golf.

So, even though it's clear that a rank amateur can do damage with a stick, there's more to know than just "wailing away" at a threat.

There's an old mechanic joke that makes this point well:
A traveling salesman was driving down a rural road on a hot summer's day somewhere in the South when his car coughed, sputtered, and quit running. Strange, there was plenty of gas, the battery was still strong, and the radiator was full. Well, nothing to do but walk.

He rolled up his sleeves, took off his tie, and headed down the road toward a one-pump gas station he remembered seeing a few miles back. When he got there, he found an older gent sitting on the porch, rocking gently and puffing a pipe.
"My car has quit a few miles up the road. Can you help me?"
"Sho nuff, Ah reckon Ah kin. Lemme git mah box."​
The gent fetched his box and the pair hoofed it back to the car.

With the hood up, the gent stared at the engine for a bit, felt around a little, and tapped a couple of places. He opened his box, and pulled from it the only tool resting within: a ball peen hammer. Nodding to the salesman, he reached in and swung the hammer twice, making an impressive clang.
"Trah it now."​
The salesman turned the key, the engine turned over, coughed, and fired. They piled into the car, switched on the A/C, and drove back to the gas station.
"How much do I owe ya?"
"Wull, thatta be sevenny fahv bucks."
"Seventy-five bucks? All you did was smack it with a hammer! You know, the home office is gonna need an itemized receipt."
"Sho nuff. Lemme gitta sheet."​
And in a couple of minutes, to his chagrin, the salesman had his itemized receipt:
"LABOR: Hittin engine with hammer, $5.00; Knowin where to hit: $70.00"

:neener:

So, if you're gonna carry a stick for self defense (or any other contact instrument) remember: [with apologies for the math slop]
Ten percent hittin' him with a stick, ninety percent knowin' where (and how) to hit.

 
Big plus on how.

As you know, baton strikes (and levers/takedowns) are multiple, different techniques, most of which have very little to do with the standard use of a baseball bat at the plate.

Training.
 
A club can parry a knife or break the arm wielding it. It gives you something to deflect with, along with a little extra reach to keep your opponent away. It also makes the head a viable target, although you have to be prepared for the consequences, both moral and legal, that will result from that. I think there's a lot more viable targets for a club than there are a knife.

I know how to use my elbows in a fight, but I would only use them against someone's face if believe myself in grave danger. That's one blow you can never take back, as you are looking at probable permanent damage, be it a broken nose or loss of an eye. It's a fight stopper, sure, but it's not one to take lightly. You're looking at probably changing someone's life forever.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top