Turn in your guns cowboy. There's a new sheriff in town.

One of the many reasons I no longer respect Virgil or Wyatt Earp. As I understand most western towns allowed carrying of guns, it was mostly the violent cow towns like Tombstone and Dodge that prohibited it, and its sad to see once again decent folk having rights violated for a few criminals.

Statistically w/ the few exceptions like Tombstone and Dodge, western towns where everyone had a gun and many carried were far safer than 'civilized' eastern towns like NY etc

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and:

That's the only statement you made that I have issue with. Everything else pretty much seems spot on from what I've read.

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The problem here is that far too few people have studied the actual history of the Kansas cowtowns (of which Dodge City is an example) and mining camps (such as Tombstone).

Concerning Tombstone: Wyatt Earp served for a short period as a Pima County deputy sheriff, and much later as a U.S. deputy marshal. Virgil Earp was already a U.S. Deputy Marshal when he came to Tombstone. He (not Wyatt) was appointed to the Office of City Marshal after Fred White, the previous marshal, was shot and killed by "Curly Bill" Brocuis - a drunken cowboy/outlaw. While incidents such as this were rare, it was the sort of thing that caused the Town Council (not the Earps) to pass the firearms control ordinance. A review of period newspaper reports show that shootings were rare, and most of the ones that did happen were between "sporting men," (gamblers) or between one of them and an unhappy customer. Obviously if the good residents of the town felt they were at great risk, they would have made some changes in the town's government at the next election. It is a matter of historical record that this didn't happen in either Dodge City or Tombstone.

That said, in both places there was no shortage of firearms among the general population, and if the residents felt a special need to arm themselves they could do so very quickly. That was true then, and it's still true now.

I am sure this will come as a shock to those who have been "educated" by television shows and movies, but I am delighted to say that any current day shooting in Tombstone (other then actors) is so seldom, and so far back, that as I sit here I can't remember a single incident.

From the historical accounts I've read, Abilene, Kansas, was much rougher and more dangerous than Dodge City.

As for the most dangerous area back in the days of "the old West," nothing could compare to "Indian Territory," or what later became Oklahoma. It was a vast, lonely, sparsely populated area where criminals of all stripe, ran to and hid out. If anyone wants to read a very interesting nonfiction book detailing just how perilous going "out in the Nations" was, pick up a copy of "Law West Of Fort Smith, A History of Frontier Justice in Indian Territory, 1834-1896," by Glenn Shirley, University of Nebraska Press, (c) 1957.

Murder, robbery, etc., were rampant. Many U.S. Deputy Marshals were killed in the line of duty, going out into the Nations to bring in extremely dangerous outlaws, white, red, and black.

The exploits of a U.S. Deputy Marshal depicted in Charles Portis' novel, "True Grit," were "right as rain." As the old saying went, "Life is somewhat cheap out in the Nations."

FWIW.

L.W.

Tombstone was remarkably advanced for the time, as evidenced by the paved street, curbs and sidewalks.

Most places these days prohibit lawful CCW in bars and places that serve alcohol. If your town's business model (or portions thereof) is based around providing a drunken debauch for guys redlined by time out on the range or in mines the logic isn't really that far removed from what is considered reasonable these days.

Tombstone was remarkably advanced for the time, as evidenced by the paved street, curbs and sidewalks.

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I'm delighted you noticed. Also they found it was easier to clean up the horse poop....

As mentioned earlier in this thread much of what passes for "Western lore" came from early cinema and mirrors the social mores of the time. In essence they were dime novels on film. There were plenty of People of Color in the West and 20-25% of the Cowboys were Black ( about 1/3 in Texas) but you won't see that in movies made at the same time as "Birth of a Nation" by D.W griffith.

If memory serves, there were only about half a dozen documented "showdowns" in the west during the last half of the 19th century.
So in 50 years it happened maybe 6 times, not exactly what hollywood would have us believe.

Far East Sig said:

If memory serves, there were only about half a dozen documented "showdowns" in the west during the last half of the 19th century.
So in 50 years it happened maybe 6 times, not exactly what hollywood would have us believe.

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I read somewhere that most of the people killed by Billy the kid were shot in the back.....

The country was a very different place in the 1800s and there is far more senseless violence today than there ever was then. Of course, back then people believed in and feared the living God, to whom they believed in their heart they would have to give an account when their life was over. Now that the country has taken tremendous strides to eliminate Him from all discourse, we see today:

…since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

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People in the old west (or anywhere else) weren’t murdering each other at the drop of a hat because they believed they would be judged. Of course there has always been murder, terror, and evil, but it’s more prevalent today than it was then.

Religious discourse? I thought this was a firearms forum.

Morality isn't a monopoly owned by the delusional.

I shall repeat my earlier posting on this subject:

Consider this as a poll question:

The miners and cowboys riding into Tombstone were:
(Check the three most likely to apply)
1. Planning to get drunk.
2. Looking to gamble.
3. Paying to get laid.
4. Visiting the museum.
5. Going to the church social.
6. Posting letters to their mothers.

Tombstone was not modern day Seattle, or even modern day tourist trap Tombstone. The nuances of 21st century culture and constitutional law can hardly be applied to 1880s frontier life. Carrying guns (openly or concealed) in the “gentlemen’s entertainment district” is an activity we seek to discourage today, and Wyatt and his brothers (who owned a saloon where all manner of vice was sold) can hardly be blamed for promoting the safety of all concerned. The area we are discussing was not “mixed use retail and food service”; it was an open mall dedicated to drinking, gambling, and whoring. The participants were concentrated and all guilty; it was just a matter of degree.

So, a free gun check service while you’re out on a toot? I appreciate the fine points of modern law, but I’m willing to cut them some slack.

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-BothellBob

Let's face it, guns and alcohol don't mix. Not now, not in 1885. Sorry.