Why dosen't the .30-30 get any respect?
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again jason your not reading, I said that a 30-30 has limitations, like what you said, though 250 yrds is very generous. my point that you have missed up till now is that it may work fine at a short distance but in most parts of the country you'd be limiting yourself, so don't be surprised that many choose to carry a far more versatile rifle... again saying nothing is better than the 30-30 inside 250 is a stretch.. even with the new hornady bullets, which I'm very familiar with(35rem,45-70) your still figuring some hold over.. and a 250yd open sights shot is not easy for many people, so therefore one is most likely adding a scope to their lightweight compact lever rifle....
Many people see the limitations of the 30-30 and choose to pass it up... this is the answer to the ops question, it's just the way it is..
many choose not to, I understand that.. but many do
Yes, I'm well aware of the existence of the LeveRevolution loads and yes, they will shoot a little flatter. They won't turn the 30-30 into a 250 yard load, they won't bridge the 550 fps deficit and they won't make a 336 or 94 as accurate as a good bolt.
JASmith
Member
The 30-30 can be very impressive out 300 yards even with traditional (vice Hornady's new stuff). This article focused on a different cartridge but the 30-30 was one of the standards compared against: http://shootersnotes.com/grendelmania/grendel-potential-for-large-game/.
There's also a discussion about using the 30-30 for coyote shooting out beyond 100 yards: http://shootersnotes.com/articles/coyote-hunting-with-30-30/
Cheers!
There's also a discussion about using the 30-30 for coyote shooting out beyond 100 yards: http://shootersnotes.com/articles/coyote-hunting-with-30-30/
Cheers!
Kachok
Member
To compare the 30-30 to a 30-06 is crazy. But if you want to compare cartrages in totaly different catagories my 270WSM handloads will make your 30-06 look silly for showing up. At 500 yards a 150gr spritzer 30-06 is hardly chuging along at 1686fps and 947 ft lbs with a bullet drop of 49.32. The threshold for the WSM is much much higher. 140gr @500 yards with the same 200 yard zero you are 2471fps with 1898ft lbs KE and only 27.89" of drop! Twice the downrange energy, MUCH flatter trajectory, my ultra modern rail gun makes the old 06 look really really stupid right, well In real life the 06 is a great gun for realistic ranges so is the 30-30. 
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No one is arguing that it doesn't have limitations. Everything has limitations. However, if you can operate within its limitations, as I've been saying all along, you can do no better for the game animals given. Likewise, if all you need is a 300yd-capable rifle, there is no reason to choose the .300Mag over the .30-06. No one is arguing that everybody has the same needs or requirements, which should be rather obvious. Every statement I've made has had very important stipulations regarding game size and range. You are creating an argument as if I did not stipulate.
Oh please, the .44Mag out of a carbine is good to 150yds. A 240gr Gold Dot at 1800fps zeroed at 100yds only drops 5" at 150yds.
PcolaDawg
Member
I'm not a caliber expert, but the first deer I ever killed was with a borrowed .30-30. I could tell through the scope that the deer was dead before it hit the ground.
As a result, I've always had warm thoughts towards the .30-30.
As a result, I've always had warm thoughts towards the .30-30.
well I'm not trying to make any "argument". I'm just adding to the discussion. The ops original question was why doesn't the 30-30 get more respect. I'm merely stating that in such very common situations as a 250-400 yd shot on elk or even whitetail, there are better options. many folks don't get weeks off work to hunt every year, and we try to be as prepared as humanly possible to take game at whatever range it presents itself. I think your taking this personal, when it's not. in the original days of the 30-30 a guy would go out several times a week to hunt for dinner, and it was a very useful utilitarian cartridge.. in the midwest and west shots present themselves from 0-1000 yds and beyond, so most guys want a rifle that will shoot to their max accurate range. for me thats about 400, others it may be less. when I go out in the field I take a rifle that is capable of what I am capable of..a 30-30 is not that rifle.. This is true for many people, again there in lies the fact that many choose to pass it up... I'm not going to discuss the semantics of this thread, the topic is what the topic is, and that is the negativity toward this caliber... I'm only offering a bit of explanation as to why..
My buddy went a bought a 30-30 for his first gun last year, I helped him develope his loads, and I practiced shooting with him. he is comfortable at 100 yds. he doesn't need anything other than his marlin. where I hunt that gun wouldn't cut the mustard.. just the facts
Kachok
Member
Like I said before, 98% of all deer taken in North America are taken within 200 yards, (actual study, not oppinion) well within the effective range of the 30-30, in that range it is hard to get better then the old lever gun. If you want to stretch that to 300-400 yards the 30-06, 308, 6.5x55, 270, and 25-06 are all great choices. And finnaly if you are a sniper grade shooter and are willing to invest the range time/load development time for 500 yard shots there are no better choices then 270WSM, 7mm rem mag, or 300 Win mag. I am not saying that you could not hunt the brush with your 300 win mag, or that your 30-06 could not take a deer at 500, but neither of those is Ideal IMHO. Having a rifle in each class gives you the perfect weapon for any situation.
I'm afraid you've misquoted me. Allow me to quote the line in full:
[emphasis added]
What I said was that 150 yards is the range within which a 30-30 is just as good as a 30-06 (for deer), not that it was the maximum range possible with a 30-30.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
There's nothing personal about it, not in the least. It's a rifle cartridge, not my mother.
I think most would disagree that 400yd shots at game animals are "very common". Especially in the east. Obviously, if you need more range, you need more cartridge. That much is a given and no one is arguing that. If you don't, which most hunters do not, you're beating yourself up for nothing. What we are arguing is the notion that any other cartridge will kill deer and hogs any deader than the .30-30 within its effective range.
Even in the wide-open spaces, this usually is a characteristic of 'how' you hunt, not where. Unless you've never heard of hunting with a bow, handgun or muzzleloader. For some, myself included, 'how' we hunt is just as important as any other aspect and we intentionally limit ourselves by using equipment that requires us to hunt harder. Because we want to.
Kachok
Member
I have known many an old hunter that has never had the chance to shoot a deer at 400 yards, much less the desire to. I used to live in West Texas where 200-400 yard shots on mulies was the norm, but not much of that here in the Southeast. My 26" barrel 7mm mag would be just as out of place in the dense brush a 30-30 would be back out west IMHO. Pick the right rifle for your hunting needs, if you hunt around here a 30-30 is probably all you will ever need unless you hunt the peanut feilds.
How in the world do you figure that? The Hornady LE ammo has turned to the .30-30 into a honest 250 -300 yard rifle easily, some folks have taken game effectively out to 300 yards as well. There is all sorts of documentation of this in the Hornady scrap book. As far as accuracy look at my first post, that is on par with most bolt guns. On avg is a bolt gun more acurate....? yes and I won't argue that fact. However leverguns are a lot more accurate than most will give them credit for.
Oh please, you sound as though your a gun writer espousing the all to common 250- 400 yard shots on game
While hunters occasionaly encounter 400 yard shots the vast majority of game taken is inside of 200 yards. This little fact can be wittnessed by visiting the the scrap book page of Hornady's web site. There may be a few stories of shots beyond 250 yards however the majority are those of game being taken inside of 200 yards, and most of those are under 150 yards. Yeah the all to common 250 yards to 400 yard shot my foot. I'll also add that the vast majority of hunters in this country are not well practiced shots as are some foks here. They have no business even attempting shots beyond 150 yards. Yet they tote the equipment around every hunting season and will at some point wound an animal, it never fails. That last bit is not at all directed towards you suzukisam so don't take at such.
Kachok
Member
Judging from the avarage quality of shooting I see at my local range, 90+% of hunters have no buisness even attempting a 400 yard shot on a living thing reguardless of the caliber. If you cannot hold 3" at a hundred yards off a bench, 30-30 range is all you should ever use anyway.
Only once in my past several trips have I seen another shooter touch holes repeteldy. She was cute too, LOL no kidding
Only once in my past several trips have I seen another shooter touch holes repeteldy. She was cute too, LOL no kidding
christcorp
Member
95% of my 30-30 ammo is designed for 200 yards. It could be good out to about 300 yards, but I never had shots like that when the marlin 30-30 was my primary rifle. If I'm anticipating a hunt in an area that can have a 300+ yard shot, then my 30-30 simply isn't going to be my primary weapon. That's what my 7mm mag is for. And here in Wyoming; most deer are not taken at the 150 yard mark. It's usually in the 200-300 yard range. That's why the 30-30 simply isn't the preferred caliber. We could shoot more 30-30 here, but why carry 2 rifles with us? There's an equal chance of shooting past 300 yards as there is to shoot below 200 yards. So; we carry the rifle that will shoot further.
But I would never sell my marlin 336. It was my primary rifle in texas and it's my backup rifle for deer/elk here in wyoming. If I drop, break, knock scope, etc... my 7mm mag "My primary for deer and elk", then I have my 30-30. It means closer shots, but that's better than not having a 2nd gun. And I've bee using the marlin as a 2-shot rifle for almost 30 years. Reloading pointed bullet boat tails and similar for that whole time. I haven't used a traditional round nose 30-30 round for longer than I can remember. LeverEvolution ammo is good, but it was only developed because there's too many idiots in the world. If manufacturers didn't have to worry about people loading a magazine with pointed bullets up again a primer, we would have had pointed 30-30 ammo years ago. That's why I reload my own for that.
The 30-30 with leverevolution, or reload pointed ammo, is definitely good from 200-300 yards. It's still more than 1000 ft/lbs of energy, and it only drops about 10-12" at 300 yards if sighted in for 200 yards. But I use it mainly for UP TO 200 yards. If I need more than 200 yards; which is definitely more the norm in Wyoming, then I'm using my 7mm mag. If I need 400+ and don't need to worry about a flat shooter a mile a way; e.g. high mountains after sheep/goat; then I use my weatherby 30-378. These are my 3 hunting calibers. I don't get into bear, so I don't need to short distance heavy hitter like 444, 45-70, and others. But my 30-30 is definitely a great 200+/- yard weapon for deer and elk.
But I would never sell my marlin 336. It was my primary rifle in texas and it's my backup rifle for deer/elk here in wyoming. If I drop, break, knock scope, etc... my 7mm mag "My primary for deer and elk", then I have my 30-30. It means closer shots, but that's better than not having a 2nd gun. And I've bee using the marlin as a 2-shot rifle for almost 30 years. Reloading pointed bullet boat tails and similar for that whole time. I haven't used a traditional round nose 30-30 round for longer than I can remember. LeverEvolution ammo is good, but it was only developed because there's too many idiots in the world. If manufacturers didn't have to worry about people loading a magazine with pointed bullets up again a primer, we would have had pointed 30-30 ammo years ago. That's why I reload my own for that.
The 30-30 with leverevolution, or reload pointed ammo, is definitely good from 200-300 yards. It's still more than 1000 ft/lbs of energy, and it only drops about 10-12" at 300 yards if sighted in for 200 yards. But I use it mainly for UP TO 200 yards. If I need more than 200 yards; which is definitely more the norm in Wyoming, then I'm using my 7mm mag. If I need 400+ and don't need to worry about a flat shooter a mile a way; e.g. high mountains after sheep/goat; then I use my weatherby 30-378. These are my 3 hunting calibers. I don't get into bear, so I don't need to short distance heavy hitter like 444, 45-70, and others. But my 30-30 is definitely a great 200+/- yard weapon for deer and elk.
Jason_W
Member
I've often wondered how many shooters would notice any difference in group size between a lever action and a bolt action if they shot off hand rather than from sandbags.
I might even wager that the lever would win in an offhand competition with a bolt due to the fact that most levers seem to point and balance better than bolts.
JASmith
Member
Some parts of this discussion seem a little repetitive.
I think we can summarize the 30-30 with the following:
I think we can summarize the 30-30 with the following:
- The bullet is capable of taking deer well-past 200 yards
- The trajectory is steep enough that most folks will need to use both Kentuky Windage and Tenessee elevation to assure hits in the vital zone at ranges beyond 150 yards
- Most of us don't shoot enough to effectively use these techniques
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I like the 30-30. I own more rifles chambered in 30-30 than any other round. It is what it is. Don't try to make it into something it ain't.
The fact is that the 30-30 round was obsolete for 3 years before the first box of ammo ever hit the shelves. Even with it's limitations the fact that it is as popular as it is today is a testament to the respect it gets. Lets face it, almost any round is a better choice. But lots of guys(including myself) just plain like hunting with it.
The fact is that the 30-30 round was obsolete for 3 years before the first box of ammo ever hit the shelves. Even with it's limitations the fact that it is as popular as it is today is a testament to the respect it gets. Lets face it, almost any round is a better choice. But lots of guys(including myself) just plain like hunting with it.
agreed
you guys are adamant about the merits of you 30-30's. as I am about many of my favorite cartridges.. okay...I'm going to try this one last time.. you guys stated that the majority of deer are under 200 when taken, it was also said that most shooters basically stink from what is observed at local ranges. I would tend to agree with all that.. but if most hunters aren't capable then that would explain why the deer taken are not any farther. I'm in north central MO for deer season, and I can attest to the fact that there are many shots that present themselves at ranges far greater than I or most can shoot.. just in our group this year three deer were taken at 350+/- a few yrds I shot one at about 180, and another at about 160, and had shots at several I ranged to be 400, but I didn't shoot because the hunter I was with had the lease and he got first dibs from our elevated blind.. so for me and from my experience these type of shots over hay fields are very common whether mens capabilities or equipment can do it is another story..
there is a trend in our country and it can be seen on this board, and a few involved in this discussion have even commented on it, and that is to practice the skills of longer range shooting. I'm not really speaking of the mall ninja "snipers". I'm more speaking of serious hunters and shooters.. whether this is your opinion, and it is not obviously the attitude of many in thread, or whether you even like, or agree with it, it is still a very big trend in shooting over the last decade or two.. this attitude has moved away from conventional lever type rifles, and heavy slow calibers. the existence of all these new super duper uber short magnums is proof that people for whatever reason, good or bad, are looking for the most performance out of their rifle. the 30-30 does not fit into that mindset.. I like the 45lc, though I load it to nearly 44 mag velocity and I like the 45-70, though again I load +p for hunting. but the fact still remains that many are looking for the peak of performance, and as even some here have stated they know this is not the 30-30,but they still love it..
again I think there is a big difference in what people are capable of and what they encounter in the field... no one usually comes home and says "I shot ten times at a deer 500 yds away, but I can't shoot that far so it walked back into the woods unscathed".. though I've seen it with my own eyes more than once!
again the original topic is not whether or not it is better or worse in it's capable range. it was why do people hate on this legendary cartridge.. I'm merely offering the point of view of those that do not get excited about this caliber. you don't have to agree or even think it's a relevant view point, it just is the view point of some..
JASmith
Member
"...again the original topic is not whether or not it is better or worse in it's capable range. it was why do people hate on this legendary cartridge.. I'm merely offering the point of view of those that do not get excited about this caliber. you don't have to agree or even think it's a relevant view point, it just is the view point of some.."
Ever consider the possibility that some of these folks secretly realize that their prize super-dooper loudenboomer doesn't kill them any more dead than the thutty-thutty?
...or that they aren't connecting at ranges that are all that much longer than they can with that wonderful old rifle?
Ever consider the possibility that some of these folks secretly realize that their prize super-dooper loudenboomer doesn't kill them any more dead than the thutty-thutty?
...or that they aren't connecting at ranges that are all that much longer than they can with that wonderful old rifle?
bad_aim_billy
Member
Why does everyone always assume hunting out west involves long shots? I've never taken a shot over 125 yards. Just because someone spends thousands of dollars on a "once in a lifetime hunt" doesn't mean they HAVE to take a long shot to take home their "trophy". Whatever happened to letting animals pass when the shot just isn't there?
About a year ago I read in an article regarding lever action .30-30s, that there were approximately 7,000,000 Winchester 94s manufactured, and approximately 4,000,000 Marlin 36, 336, 30s manufactured. This included the various clones for Sears, Montgomery Ward, Western Auto, J.C. Penny, etc.
Those are a lot of lever action rifles, mainly in the .30-30 caliber.
Sorry, I can't remember the article's title.
L.W.
35 Whelen
Member
Thank you. The last two sentences say it all.
I've elk hunted New Mexico every year since 2004. Including my fathers kills, they have ranged at: 44, 52, 75, 125, and 355. I almost passed on the 355 as it looked SO far. It's really easy to sit at a keyboard and blah, blah, blah about 400 yd. shots. But actually making them is another matter entirely. Two seasons ago I ranged a super nice bull at 514 yds. Taking a shot was completely out of the question. No one "deserves" to take stupid long shots like that.
If more people thought like Leanwolf, more 30-30's could be used.
35W
All of them. The greater variance in point of aim caused by shooting offhand is added to mechanical variance, it doesn't cover it up. In other words, if you can hold your point of aim to within, say, 6 MOA shooting offhand and your rifle shoots 2 MOA, then your groups will be 8 MOA.
Besides, the question is moot. The subject of the accuracy discussion is shooting at 250 yards and anyone who takes a 250 yard shot at game offhand should be flogged. Also, a bolt action lends itself to the proper use of a shooting sling while most levers do not. A bolt action 30-06 is simply better for long distance shooting than a lever action 30-30. Whether that's important is open for discussion. Whether it's true is not.
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