Lord Teapot
Member
i personally dont use a shotgun for home defense, but i think it would be an excellent choice, if a high powered assault rifle is not available.
Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?
- Thread starter Crusader103
- Start date
- Status
1stmarine
Member
Hi Bratch,
Read the post again. Nobody said penetration does not matter. I said penetration has no bearing over the terminal effectiveness of a round.
What you want is enough penetration and all the expansion, tumbling or any other effect to cause the maximum damage that one can get.
Muhajadin named the AK-74 5.45x39 round the poison bullet. It was not the energy, it was not the speed, it was what the bullet did when it touched their bodies.
With a shotgun the expansion comes built with the package so you don't have to worry about this and you want to keep the spread not too big and then finally you need a load that can assure enough penetration. ie: A bird shot is perfect for a bird but not for defense (unless birds attack you). The mass and velocity of a turkey/bb load is perfect. That is one of my points.
Anyway, Rifle/shotgun/bow In all cases the objective is to leave the highest percentage of energy in that one target so the highest the energy w/o over penetrating the biggest the damage. This is directly proportional to the simple principal of ballistics, the higher the energy needed, at some point the bore and the grain increases. Sometimes the energy is needed to defeat barriers, anti-material purposes but sometimes they are needed to stay in the soft targets like large animals.
You will find many reports of people after being under heavy fire and they find out later they have been shot after the battle when the adrenaline wears out. Or by your mate checking your back and limbs after the fight (standard military and LE procedure).
Here you seem to recognize that penetration is not that much important so why those bullets have less penetration than pistol rounds and they are preferred over pistol rounds ...besides other benefits, maybe they leave more energy in the target? Bingo!
Carbine High velocity rounds have several obvious purposes:
-Flat shooting.
-High energy with lower grain.
-more firepower (less grain = more rounds)
-Good Penetration (shoots through cover, car doors, vegetation, etc..)
Pistol and modern tactical rounds have 4 main purposes
- Defeat standard type II and III body armor. (pistol cannot)
- Low recoil, low grain w/o being overkill (FN 5.7, .357SIG special police, etc..)
- More rounds (very small and light)
- Reduce liability.
I think that we are derailing from the main purpose here. I am not a great fun or being quoted or quote back or get into those type of endless long threads that lead nowhere. If you have a question please ask. I will do the same. Feel free to send me a PM with the specific round you have in mind, any time.
Cheers.
E.
Read the post again. Nobody said penetration does not matter. I said penetration has no bearing over the terminal effectiveness of a round.
What you want is enough penetration and all the expansion, tumbling or any other effect to cause the maximum damage that one can get.
Muhajadin named the AK-74 5.45x39 round the poison bullet. It was not the energy, it was not the speed, it was what the bullet did when it touched their bodies.
With a shotgun the expansion comes built with the package so you don't have to worry about this and you want to keep the spread not too big and then finally you need a load that can assure enough penetration. ie: A bird shot is perfect for a bird but not for defense (unless birds attack you). The mass and velocity of a turkey/bb load is perfect. That is one of my points.
Anyway, Rifle/shotgun/bow In all cases the objective is to leave the highest percentage of energy in that one target so the highest the energy w/o over penetrating the biggest the damage. This is directly proportional to the simple principal of ballistics, the higher the energy needed, at some point the bore and the grain increases. Sometimes the energy is needed to defeat barriers, anti-material purposes but sometimes they are needed to stay in the soft targets like large animals.
You will find many reports of people after being under heavy fire and they find out later they have been shot after the battle when the adrenaline wears out. Or by your mate checking your back and limbs after the fight (standard military and LE procedure).
Here you seem to recognize that penetration is not that much important so why those bullets have less penetration than pistol rounds and they are preferred over pistol rounds ...besides other benefits, maybe they leave more energy in the target? Bingo!
Carbine High velocity rounds have several obvious purposes:
-Flat shooting.
-High energy with lower grain.
-more firepower (less grain = more rounds)
-Good Penetration (shoots through cover, car doors, vegetation, etc..)
Pistol and modern tactical rounds have 4 main purposes
- Defeat standard type II and III body armor. (pistol cannot)
- Low recoil, low grain w/o being overkill (FN 5.7, .357SIG special police, etc..)
- More rounds (very small and light)
- Reduce liability.
I think that we are derailing from the main purpose here. I am not a great fun or being quoted or quote back or get into those type of endless long threads that lead nowhere. If you have a question please ask. I will do the same. Feel free to send me a PM with the specific round you have in mind, any time.
Cheers.
E.
straybullet
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2010
- Messages
- 57
I bought an Escort .12 a few months ago especially for home defense. Using buck and ball shells and think it will perform the task purchased for.
HorseSoldier
Member
As far as I can tell, the "poison bullet" story is Soviet propaganda, not well attested to (if it is attested to at all) on the Mujahedin side of that conflict, for whatever it's worth.
1stmarine
Member
Not it is not propaganda. We learned that from an elder over there.
It doesn't translate poison bullet more like venom bullet as the infections it caused due to fragmentation. A very hard to clean wound on average, even for battled trained medics and doctors.
I am pretty sure the Russians also helped with the marketing though.
It doesn't translate poison bullet more like venom bullet as the infections it caused due to fragmentation. A very hard to clean wound on average, even for battled trained medics and doctors.
I am pretty sure the Russians also helped with the marketing though.
As one of these New Kids, I'll chime in why my AR-15 sits by the bedside and my Mossy-500 in the safe:
Size: My 18" Carbine with the stock pulled in is much easier to maneuver around the house then my 20" Mossberg 500 with a traditional stock.
Likewise, I find the AR-15 ergonomics much better then the shotgun's. Its much easier to huddle up around the AR-15 and have more control and retention of the weapon then the spread-out feeling of a shotgun.
With the center of gravity and the weight more located at the reciever of the AR-15, it also swings much faster then a Mossberg 500 with 7 rounds of OOO and Slugs in the tube.
The lighter recoil of the AR-15 makes it much easier to shoot, and run fast then the heavier recoil of the shotgun, thus putting multiple shots into a close range target is extremely easy. Using SP or HP 5.56 ammunition, I have very few doubts about the terminal effectiveness of this small and fast round.
Capacity: 8 shots out of the shotgun requires a rather long reloading sequence. 30 shots out of a carbine requires a 5 second mag-change. My AR sports a butt-stock magazine pouch with 30 round mag in it, for reference.
Ease of practice: I can easily run 200 rounds through a carbine and not notice. After about 25 rounds of magnum buck or slugs I'm ready to call it a day. At the end, its the trigger time that's going to determine which is more effective; Its easier to get a lot of trigger time with the AR-15. Its a chore to do so with the shotgun.
Flexibility: 3ft or 300 yards, my AR can do it, 3ft to 75 yards is all I find my shotty can do.
Now, in terms of raw power does the shotgun throw more lead and pack more punch then the AR? Yes. But, more then just sheer throw-weight of a gun play into how useful and effective it is in terms of HD or personal defense. I find the size, weight, controllability, adaptability, and flexibility of the carbine platform to outweigh the sheer power of the shotgun platform.
Now, all of this is not to say that an AR is superior to a shotgun for HD. I would rate them equal. That said, the heavier recoil, slow reload, and cost of practice with a shotgun is what is causing the AR to become the preferred defensive longarm.
Size: My 18" Carbine with the stock pulled in is much easier to maneuver around the house then my 20" Mossberg 500 with a traditional stock.
Likewise, I find the AR-15 ergonomics much better then the shotgun's. Its much easier to huddle up around the AR-15 and have more control and retention of the weapon then the spread-out feeling of a shotgun.
With the center of gravity and the weight more located at the reciever of the AR-15, it also swings much faster then a Mossberg 500 with 7 rounds of OOO and Slugs in the tube.
The lighter recoil of the AR-15 makes it much easier to shoot, and run fast then the heavier recoil of the shotgun, thus putting multiple shots into a close range target is extremely easy. Using SP or HP 5.56 ammunition, I have very few doubts about the terminal effectiveness of this small and fast round.
Capacity: 8 shots out of the shotgun requires a rather long reloading sequence. 30 shots out of a carbine requires a 5 second mag-change. My AR sports a butt-stock magazine pouch with 30 round mag in it, for reference.
Ease of practice: I can easily run 200 rounds through a carbine and not notice. After about 25 rounds of magnum buck or slugs I'm ready to call it a day. At the end, its the trigger time that's going to determine which is more effective; Its easier to get a lot of trigger time with the AR-15. Its a chore to do so with the shotgun.
Flexibility: 3ft or 300 yards, my AR can do it, 3ft to 75 yards is all I find my shotty can do.
Now, in terms of raw power does the shotgun throw more lead and pack more punch then the AR? Yes. But, more then just sheer throw-weight of a gun play into how useful and effective it is in terms of HD or personal defense. I find the size, weight, controllability, adaptability, and flexibility of the carbine platform to outweigh the sheer power of the shotgun platform.
Now, all of this is not to say that an AR is superior to a shotgun for HD. I would rate them equal. That said, the heavier recoil, slow reload, and cost of practice with a shotgun is what is causing the AR to become the preferred defensive longarm.
Pilgrim
Member
If I recall the incident, only LAPD field supervisors had shotguns and the only ammunition issued was buckshot.
Pilgrim
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
1stmarine said:
So penetration matters but penetration has no bearing on the terminal effectiveness of the round? That strikes me as contradictory.
People are tougher than drywall. That's why I can throw a baseball through drywall; but not through a human being. Anything the is going to penetrate at least 10" (which is 2" below the FBI minimum) of ballistics gel will penetrate an interior wall quite handily. If it stops in a single interior wall, you can pretty much bet money it will not penetrate 10" of jello.
They called it the poison bullet because they would die of sepsis 3-7 days after they'd been shot. I don't want to kill my attacker; but I do want him to stop his threatening behavior immediately and not in 3-7 days. Currently, there is only one way to do this that does not give my attacker a choice in what happens - shut down the CNS through direct damage or loss of blood pressure. Being able to this in a variety of scenarios requires more penetration than any round that will stop in drywall provides.
A 12ga turkey load is going to rip right through two sheets of drywall as well and still be capable of killing what is on the other side. My point to you is that if it doesn't go through drywall, it probably isn't a round you want to bet your life on. Most firearms projectiles that are effective are going to penetrate multiple interior walls. Part of being a responsible firearm owner is to always be cognizant of your background whether you've got #12 shot loaded or 650gr API.
Jason_W
Member
Don't know if these potential factors have been mentioned yet in addressing the OP's question.
Americans love gadgetry and accessories. The platform that current allows for the most adding on and modding out without major gunsmithing is the AR.
The culture among shooting enthusiasts right now seems to be one of accuracy worship. A lot of people seem to think a long gun isn't fit to anchor a rowboat if it can't knock the eye out of a flea at 500 yards.
As someone already mentioned, the shifting from a largely rural population to a largely urban population is likely a factor. Having grown up in rural, northeastern Vermont, I can appreciate the gun that can -simply by changing out the shell- kill a small game animal without vaporizing it, kill a big game animal within its range limitations, and put a mean hurt on a bad guy.
There is no other single gun in existence that can do all three of those things as well as a shotgun.
Americans love gadgetry and accessories. The platform that current allows for the most adding on and modding out without major gunsmithing is the AR.
The culture among shooting enthusiasts right now seems to be one of accuracy worship. A lot of people seem to think a long gun isn't fit to anchor a rowboat if it can't knock the eye out of a flea at 500 yards.
As someone already mentioned, the shifting from a largely rural population to a largely urban population is likely a factor. Having grown up in rural, northeastern Vermont, I can appreciate the gun that can -simply by changing out the shell- kill a small game animal without vaporizing it, kill a big game animal within its range limitations, and put a mean hurt on a bad guy.
There is no other single gun in existence that can do all three of those things as well as a shotgun.
1stmarine
Member
Dear Mr. Bartholomew Roberts,
I am going to explain why once again and maybe a little better and then I am done with this non-sense type of thread just like many other threads out there like 9mm vs. 40cal, AR vs. AK, shotgun vs rifle, etc.... All very long and boring that lead nowhere.
As I told you if you want to know something just ask here or others or go to the library. Penetration is determined by testing and directly influenced by the speed, weight and bullet design/characteristics. Specially influenced by the bullet design. There is noting contradictory here to anyone that knows external ballistics.
Common performance parameters used by manufacturers are:
Velocity, Mass(Weight), Penetration, Expansion, ballistic pressure wave, Permanent cavity volume.
Then after a round is marketed we use statistical data as those provided by the Manufactures too, FBI, Marshall and Sanow, etc...
Nobody is shooting at drywalls as targets but the drywall and other common building materials might be all you have between your threat and your next door neighbor. That was my original point to make sure people using high velocity rounds consider a 12ga turkey/bb load that is an excellent choice.
There is a good chance a high velocity round at close range might go all the way through the threat, go through the wall and could harm another person at the other side, specially in urban environments. The 12 turkey/bb will hit the thread and leave all the energy there.
This you cannot compared with the modern military rounds and still is a good choice for military today. I used this as an example in an attempt to convey how bullet design has more to do with its effectiveness than just the energy and penetration alone. An original 5.56 FMJ has more power than the 5.45 round and still the original AK round could do more damage for the purpose it was designed for which is tumbling. Here the issue is not if tumbling is more effective than a thumper but effectiveness refereed as to the actual performance related to the purpose for what the bullet was designed for.
The Soviet cold war era response to the 5.56 concept was the 5.45 and they also considered the many reports they had where the 7.62x39 FMJ round was not able to stop the threat as they bullet went all the way through w/o expansion. Modern ammunitions address this a little better these days. In the military they teach about this (or at least they used to) in the foreign weapons familiarization and training program.
This is related to the above point again. The chances are that, at home at night, in a defensive situation you are going to hit that threat with the turkey/bb shot much better than with the carbine and that load will stay in the target, will not go through and will end the threat right there. Look for what the turkey/bb load does to the human torso or even a limb and then you will understand why. Buck shot is great but it can be excessive and increase liability.
Also I am going to tell you why I am so adamant about this. It has happened to me! ok?
In a place somewhere where they send the people to do things and follow orders.... Luckily for me that 5.56 NATO round that originally had a different purpose went through a drywall, a cement sheet, one car another drywall and ended in a room were kids normally sit and play and at that time they were in a different room so nobody was hurt. My mates told me not to worry but always kept this in my mind. I looked through the path and I actually picked up all the pieces of the FMJ and put them in my pocket. To this day they hung in my home office in the wall as a reminder of proper training, proper ammunition for the purpose and total awareness of your surroundings.
I just don't want this to happen to somebody and end up in jail when all they were doing was defending their homes and/or families.
Since I also see a lot of threads about MO POWA = MO BETTA, I have to say...
All this SHTF, tactical home defense, run & gun with people dressed like Halloween, and "it is coming" is all a bunch of baloney.
I do believe good training and good discipline is the most important thing even with a little 32ACP pistol and be careful what you do with your firearms as you are liable for what yo do with them and there is no recall button like in the computer games.
Shotgun is a great instrument in the hands of a responsible citizens and homestead defender as well as most LEO or military that understand the flexibility of this systems and the issues related to collateral damage.
I think that a lot of progress is being made with the frangible ammunition that is designed and currently being marketed with great success to avoid this type of situations. If I had to choose a .223 round for HD I would use this ammo and if I could not find it then a varmint grenade would be my next choice.
If it was just me alone and the bastard trying to hurt me I would shoot him with a grenade.
Military carbines and rifles could be real liabilities in the average home defense environment, special in densely populated urban or suburban areas.
99% of the ammo I see at the ranges I go for target or defense courses and people use for practice as well as home defense are 55gr/62gr bulk packs from Federal, AE, Remington, UMC, Wolf, etc... Occasionally I see some hunting rounds used for home defense and then all the match stuff and hunting rounds with most folks reloading but hardly considered as primary defense ammo and/or systems.
Some they even buy TAP or hp. loads w/o even knowing their 1:9 rate of twist DPMS or alike cannot stabilize that bullet. Too expensive to test them!
Some of the folks here as well as officers, military and special units is a different story of course but those are not the average joe out there.
Sincerely yours.
E.
Please read the post again "penetration has no bearing over the terminal effectiveness of a round" without the "Penetration matters", you added that.
I am going to explain why once again and maybe a little better and then I am done with this non-sense type of thread just like many other threads out there like 9mm vs. 40cal, AR vs. AK, shotgun vs rifle, etc.... All very long and boring that lead nowhere.
As I told you if you want to know something just ask here or others or go to the library. Penetration is determined by testing and directly influenced by the speed, weight and bullet design/characteristics. Specially influenced by the bullet design. There is noting contradictory here to anyone that knows external ballistics.
Common performance parameters used by manufacturers are:
Velocity, Mass(Weight), Penetration, Expansion, ballistic pressure wave, Permanent cavity volume.
Then after a round is marketed we use statistical data as those provided by the Manufactures too, FBI, Marshall and Sanow, etc...
Nobody is shooting at drywalls as targets but the drywall and other common building materials might be all you have between your threat and your next door neighbor. That was my original point to make sure people using high velocity rounds consider a 12ga turkey/bb load that is an excellent choice.
There is a good chance a high velocity round at close range might go all the way through the threat, go through the wall and could harm another person at the other side, specially in urban environments. The 12 turkey/bb will hit the thread and leave all the energy there.
This you cannot compared with the modern military rounds and still is a good choice for military today. I used this as an example in an attempt to convey how bullet design has more to do with its effectiveness than just the energy and penetration alone. An original 5.56 FMJ has more power than the 5.45 round and still the original AK round could do more damage for the purpose it was designed for which is tumbling. Here the issue is not if tumbling is more effective than a thumper but effectiveness refereed as to the actual performance related to the purpose for what the bullet was designed for.
The Soviet cold war era response to the 5.56 concept was the 5.45 and they also considered the many reports they had where the 7.62x39 FMJ round was not able to stop the threat as they bullet went all the way through w/o expansion. Modern ammunitions address this a little better these days. In the military they teach about this (or at least they used to) in the foreign weapons familiarization and training program.
This is related to the above point again. The chances are that, at home at night, in a defensive situation you are going to hit that threat with the turkey/bb shot much better than with the carbine and that load will stay in the target, will not go through and will end the threat right there. Look for what the turkey/bb load does to the human torso or even a limb and then you will understand why. Buck shot is great but it can be excessive and increase liability.
Also I am going to tell you why I am so adamant about this. It has happened to me! ok?
In a place somewhere where they send the people to do things and follow orders.... Luckily for me that 5.56 NATO round that originally had a different purpose went through a drywall, a cement sheet, one car another drywall and ended in a room were kids normally sit and play and at that time they were in a different room so nobody was hurt. My mates told me not to worry but always kept this in my mind. I looked through the path and I actually picked up all the pieces of the FMJ and put them in my pocket. To this day they hung in my home office in the wall as a reminder of proper training, proper ammunition for the purpose and total awareness of your surroundings.
I just don't want this to happen to somebody and end up in jail when all they were doing was defending their homes and/or families.
Since I also see a lot of threads about MO POWA = MO BETTA, I have to say...
All this SHTF, tactical home defense, run & gun with people dressed like Halloween, and "it is coming" is all a bunch of baloney.
I do believe good training and good discipline is the most important thing even with a little 32ACP pistol and be careful what you do with your firearms as you are liable for what yo do with them and there is no recall button like in the computer games.
Shotgun is a great instrument in the hands of a responsible citizens and homestead defender as well as most LEO or military that understand the flexibility of this systems and the issues related to collateral damage.
I think that a lot of progress is being made with the frangible ammunition that is designed and currently being marketed with great success to avoid this type of situations. If I had to choose a .223 round for HD I would use this ammo and if I could not find it then a varmint grenade would be my next choice.
If it was just me alone and the bastard trying to hurt me I would shoot him with a grenade.
Military carbines and rifles could be real liabilities in the average home defense environment, special in densely populated urban or suburban areas.
99% of the ammo I see at the ranges I go for target or defense courses and people use for practice as well as home defense are 55gr/62gr bulk packs from Federal, AE, Remington, UMC, Wolf, etc... Occasionally I see some hunting rounds used for home defense and then all the match stuff and hunting rounds with most folks reloading but hardly considered as primary defense ammo and/or systems.
Some they even buy TAP or hp. loads w/o even knowing their 1:9 rate of twist DPMS or alike cannot stabilize that bullet. Too expensive to test them!
Some of the folks here as well as officers, military and special units is a different story of course but those are not the average joe out there.
Sincerely yours.
E.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I added that because when you said "Nobody said that penetration does not matter" I got the crazy idea that you were agreeing it did matter. And it does matter, that is the whole reason the FBI specifies a minimum penetration requirement. It doesn't matter if a round expands to 3x its diameter if it doesn't also penetrate deeply enough. Wound cavity volume is also a function of penetration.
You seem to be concerned with too much penetration and if you make poor ammo choices that can be an issue with any firearm. Your original post seemed to suggest that something that won't penetrate an interior wall is ok for home defense. I don't agree for the reasons I've already outlined. If what you meant to suggest is that you shouldn't use a round that will zip through a person, a wall and somebody else, then we agree on that but training is still paramount - your turkey/BB shot that penetrates to someone's back if you hit them dead front in the torso is going to overpenetrate if it hits an arm, leg, neck or other extremity ( or if some pellets miss the threat entirely due to spread). No free rides.
walking arsenal
Member
Here is some testing. Maybe it will lay this craziness to rest.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
I'm siding with BR on this one. Using Turkey loads as a defensive load is not a good plan. Steel shot, even high velocity shot, is not very dense. It will bleed energy rapidly and while this seems like a good thing in in home defense situation it is in fact not.
Steel or bird shot will leave horrific shallow wounds and for some attackers that may be enough to stop them. However, I don't play the lottery. It's 00 buck or slugs for deep penetration with high hit probability.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
I'm siding with BR on this one. Using Turkey loads as a defensive load is not a good plan. Steel shot, even high velocity shot, is not very dense. It will bleed energy rapidly and while this seems like a good thing in in home defense situation it is in fact not.
Steel or bird shot will leave horrific shallow wounds and for some attackers that may be enough to stop them. However, I don't play the lottery. It's 00 buck or slugs for deep penetration with high hit probability.
Uteridge
Member
The reason shotgun courses are dwindling is because the AR is the flavor of the day. There is a lot of bandwagon shooters out there who don't know what they are doing that just go with popular opinion on what they should use. It doesn't hurt that the current popular opinion supports the expensive AR that they bought after the 2008 election that they have barely touched since. They have no first hand experience to fall back on so they go with what they hear.
I use and AR. The reason is because it is an all around rifle that isn't just home defense and I live far enough away from the city that I can shoot varmints if I need to. It is much easier to hit something at 100 yards with an AR than a shotgun. Rather than leaving two long guns out of the safe all the time I just use one for both. On the other hand, if I lived in an apartment in the city where I would never be shooting farther than 20 feet away I would have the shotgun out of the safe. I have seen people shot with 5.56 (although not with modern bullets because the military is stuck in the Geneva stone age) and I have seen people shot with 12 Gauge 00 Buck and I can tell you that the shotgun is by far the more effective close range round and it isn't even close. I don't need a particularity maneuverable gun in the house. I have no kids so there is no reason for me to ever clear my house in the first place. I have been on both sides of ambushes and I have cleared buildings; if you are clearing a building you are basically knowingly walking into a potential ambush in a tactical manner. I would rather sit behind a good piece of cover and set my own ambush than take a chance of walking down my hallway into an intruders ambush. For most people a shotgun is a better choice...it is just not as sexy.
I use and AR. The reason is because it is an all around rifle that isn't just home defense and I live far enough away from the city that I can shoot varmints if I need to. It is much easier to hit something at 100 yards with an AR than a shotgun. Rather than leaving two long guns out of the safe all the time I just use one for both. On the other hand, if I lived in an apartment in the city where I would never be shooting farther than 20 feet away I would have the shotgun out of the safe. I have seen people shot with 5.56 (although not with modern bullets because the military is stuck in the Geneva stone age) and I have seen people shot with 12 Gauge 00 Buck and I can tell you that the shotgun is by far the more effective close range round and it isn't even close. I don't need a particularity maneuverable gun in the house. I have no kids so there is no reason for me to ever clear my house in the first place. I have been on both sides of ambushes and I have cleared buildings; if you are clearing a building you are basically knowingly walking into a potential ambush in a tactical manner. I would rather sit behind a good piece of cover and set my own ambush than take a chance of walking down my hallway into an intruders ambush. For most people a shotgun is a better choice...it is just not as sexy.
I wear a badge, but seem to have aged out of carrying a patrol rifle, as the required training and quals are too athletic for my right knee to handle anymore. (Once I am on the deck, I am stuck there for a while, as getting to my feet is problematic.) No problem, I never really gave up toting the shotgun, anyway, as it can ride in the front passenger compartment, while the regs keep the rifles cased in the trunk. (Actually, I will confess to a couple of brief periods when I left the shotgun at home, but both times I came around to my senses.)
My patrol shotgun has a Vang-Comped barrel, which keeps tha patterns quite tight; all the 00 pellets will stay inside the face of a B-27 silhouette target at 15 yards, and still respectably tight to 25 yards. This makes the "gauge" a more formidable weapon, even without doing a select-slug maneuver. (In my opinion, a cylinder bore, with standard shotshells, is best used within very close range, only.) The Vang-Comp treatment also softens recoil to a notable degree, which my aging body really does appreciate.
I do not disdain the rifle, but still like the shotgun. If I had my way, I would keep one of each racked in the front passenger compartment of my patrol car.
My patrol shotgun has a Vang-Comped barrel, which keeps tha patterns quite tight; all the 00 pellets will stay inside the face of a B-27 silhouette target at 15 yards, and still respectably tight to 25 yards. This makes the "gauge" a more formidable weapon, even without doing a select-slug maneuver. (In my opinion, a cylinder bore, with standard shotshells, is best used within very close range, only.) The Vang-Comp treatment also softens recoil to a notable degree, which my aging body really does appreciate.
I do not disdain the rifle, but still like the shotgun. If I had my way, I would keep one of each racked in the front passenger compartment of my patrol car.
BikerRN
member
Sounds like a smart man to me.
BikerRN
Uteridge
Member
^
This.
I practice the art of click, pow.
rs3604
Member
I personally prefer a 12 ga shotgun for hd. If the racking of the slide don't scare an intruder enough then I figure looking down the "cannon" barrel will. I always say if I had only one gun it would be a shotgun. Very versatile, I can use slug or buck shot if I'm worried about over penetration use 4 shot or even 6 and it will take big and small game. I agree with everyone who say the ar is the flavor of the month, once people realize the limits and possible over penetration problems, especially in urban areas I think we will see the shot gun make it's rightful return.
1stmarine
Member
coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 3,285
1st Marine,
If you want to carry BB loads for your shotgun, more power to you. But, I'd also suggest that you at least take some time to read up on the FBI standards for projectile penetration, and try to understand what the others are saying about these loads.
As has already been said, any round that is capable of reliably providing an immediately disabling wound to a human is also capable of going through wall board. It's a pretty plain and simple fact since wall board isn't all that strong. The FBI recommends 12-18" of penetration on calibrated ballistic gelatin. I'd almost guarantee that you won't get that out of a turkey load, but I'd certainly encourage you to test your load if you think it will get that level of penetration (I might be wrong).
Incidentally, the problem with inadequate penetration is fairly obvious: if you don't reach the vitals and cause massive and immediate damage to the CNS, or a catastrophic and nearly immediate loss of blood pressure, then you can't be assured of stopping the attacker in the time frame that really matters during a gun fight.
Bird shot may cause massive flesh wounds, but a flesh wound won't stop a determined attacker in the heat of a gun fight. And, bird shot may reach the vitals of a person if it is shot from a certain distance, at a certain angle, at the right sized person. But, the 12-18" penetration guideline exists because of the strong possibility that you may need more than, say, 6" of penetration to reach the critical infrastructure in a person's body.
00 buck and slugs are both good at penetrating to the level that is needed for defensive shootings, and they both will go through drywall. At the end of the day, we always need to be mindful of our shot placement, and what lies beyond the target.
If you want to carry BB loads for your shotgun, more power to you. But, I'd also suggest that you at least take some time to read up on the FBI standards for projectile penetration, and try to understand what the others are saying about these loads.
As has already been said, any round that is capable of reliably providing an immediately disabling wound to a human is also capable of going through wall board. It's a pretty plain and simple fact since wall board isn't all that strong. The FBI recommends 12-18" of penetration on calibrated ballistic gelatin. I'd almost guarantee that you won't get that out of a turkey load, but I'd certainly encourage you to test your load if you think it will get that level of penetration (I might be wrong).
Incidentally, the problem with inadequate penetration is fairly obvious: if you don't reach the vitals and cause massive and immediate damage to the CNS, or a catastrophic and nearly immediate loss of blood pressure, then you can't be assured of stopping the attacker in the time frame that really matters during a gun fight.
Bird shot may cause massive flesh wounds, but a flesh wound won't stop a determined attacker in the heat of a gun fight. And, bird shot may reach the vitals of a person if it is shot from a certain distance, at a certain angle, at the right sized person. But, the 12-18" penetration guideline exists because of the strong possibility that you may need more than, say, 6" of penetration to reach the critical infrastructure in a person's body.
00 buck and slugs are both good at penetrating to the level that is needed for defensive shootings, and they both will go through drywall. At the end of the day, we always need to be mindful of our shot placement, and what lies beyond the target.
Youngster
Member
I think its partly because shotgun technology largely remains stuck back in the early 20th century, and besides improvements in ammunition there's not much functionally separating something like a Winchester Model 12 or Auto-5 of a century ago with most of today's tactical shotguns.
Military style rifles and carbines OTOH, have come a long, long way since then however, and now compare very favorably with shotguns in most respects.
Military style rifles and carbines OTOH, have come a long, long way since then however, and now compare very favorably with shotguns in most respects.
Jason_W
Member
I'm inclined to disagree with that last statement. Semi-automatic battle rifles still run in essentially the same way that semi-automatic weapons always have.
mustang_steve
Member
The Tacti-cool trend is killing the popularity of teh shotgun as a defensive weapon.
Most people forget, a 12ga slug is terrifyingly powerful. Energy levels from a 3" magnum high-brass slug is only exceeded by magnum rifles and a very few other calibers of similar class. High-brass with 00Buck is going to cause massive damage to the recipient.
When Kel-tec's shotgun hits the market, you'll see a resurgance in shotguns....people are obsessed with "more more more" instead of practicality. That's one thing the Kel-Tec shotgun delivers....overkill in terms of ammo capacity.
Most people forget, a 12ga slug is terrifyingly powerful. Energy levels from a 3" magnum high-brass slug is only exceeded by magnum rifles and a very few other calibers of similar class. High-brass with 00Buck is going to cause massive damage to the recipient.
When Kel-tec's shotgun hits the market, you'll see a resurgance in shotguns....people are obsessed with "more more more" instead of practicality. That's one thing the Kel-Tec shotgun delivers....overkill in terms of ammo capacity.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked