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Smaug
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CraigC said:
Unless the results are better without the scope than with the cheapo scope!
Big groups with Marlin 60. What's your bet as to the cause?
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Unless the results are better without the scope than with the cheapo scope!
You might want to check the action screws too and run a brush through the bore until you get all the lead out of the barrel. Those micro-groove barrels don't have much of a purchase on the bullet to start with and the former owner may have "cleaned" his ammo in his pocket. You may have a smoothbore musket.
Maverick223
Member
That. Furthermore it needs to be hyper (not high) velocity, or better yet sub-sonic ammo for 100yds. Why you ask, look at the ballistics tables for a hi-V .22LR and you'll see that the transonic boundary is somewhere in the 80-90yd. range...that's a problem because bullets often become unstable when they go sub-sonic (the problem is actually caused by the bullet hitting it's own sound wave). Most of the time the same ammo will group into half the MOA you were able to achieve at 100yds. if you back it down to 50yds. If you want to shoot at 100+, I believe it is best to spring for some decent sub-sonic match (which doesn't have to be too costly, I have had good results out of Aguila Rifle Match which is sub-$0.10/rnd.). Another tidbit of advice...pick a calm day to shoot (which I'm sure you already know, but it deserves to be said).
As far as the scope and mounts go, you could do a great deal better, but that is likely a secondary concern. Parallax is probably you biggest problem...i'd bout bet it was set for 25yds. If you haven't the money for something good ATM, use what you already have until you do. The cheapest optics that I would use is the CenterPoint 4-16x40mmAO. It will give you hunting magnification (4x), target magnification (16x), the adjustable objective that you need to traverse between the two, and do so for about $70.00. Anything markedly better will cause at least double (but honestly is worth the additional money IMO).
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Smaug
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I thought I read somewhere that hyper velocity ammo is a no-go in this gun. I will double check the manual, which I just downloaded last night.
Next time I'm buying some .22LR, I'll get some Subsonic ammo to see how it goes.
Next time I'm buying some .22LR, I'll get some Subsonic ammo to see how it goes.
Maverick223
Member
I'm not positive, but I believe it's fine (though it may not like the "stinger" case length found on some hyper ammo). It is harder on the buffer, so I would use it in moderation (same goes for most any other SA rimfire)...or just stick to sub-sonic which tends to demonstrate better accuracy (whether it is match grade or not), cost a bit less (unless it's good match), extend your range well beyond 100yds. (on a really good day), as well as reduce the impact on your rifle.
Maverick223
Member
Well since it is in red letters...hehehe. 
I stand corrected, but it isn't a great concern anyway as subsonic will generally do better anyway.
I stand corrected, but it isn't a great concern anyway as subsonic will generally do better anyway.
mustang_steve
Member
You're better off with good ol sights compared to cheap optics.
A set of iron sights would do you wonders.
Also keep in mind 60yds is where bullet drop starts becoming a serious issue.
A set of iron sights would do you wonders.
Also keep in mind 60yds is where bullet drop starts becoming a serious issue.
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Smaug
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Update:
I got to the 25 yd. indoor range today. No wind. Gun still dirty. New Weaver 2.5-7x28 rimfire scope and Weaver serrated tip-off bases. Same cheap Federal bulk ammo.
Showing off the scope a bit more...
That ragged hole on the upper right is from three bullets; it is a five-shot group of about 1". I was standing up, and I braced my right shoulder against the wall, and put my left elbow on the bench, so the group was not shot offhand, but not properly supported either. So, 1" at 25 yds. = 4" at 100 yds., right? That's a little better already.
I'm hoping that with a proper rest, and not too much wind, I could get 2" @ 100 yds. with this crappy ammo.
I bought a box of Remington Subsonic today, as well as a box of Winchester Super-X. I still have the CCI MiniMag too. I'll try them all out next time I get to the outdoor range.
mustang_steve: I have to disagree about bullet drop being a serious issue after 60 yds. It really depends on the zero distance. With a 50 yd. zero, it will be about 2.5" low at 80 yds and 5" low at 100 yds.
With a 100 yd. zero, it is about 3" high at 60 yds., on at 100, 4" low at 120 yds., and 11" low at 150 yds.
Based on those two graphs, I would say 100 yds. is where it really starts dropping quickly. Holding over 4" might be doable. More than that is questionable, at least for me, hehehe.
But that is for HV ammo, and you may have been talking about subsonic.
Anyone think I can get MOA out of this rig with the right ammo? I'm willing to try some really spendy stuff if it looks like it is improving things.
I got to the 25 yd. indoor range today. No wind. Gun still dirty. New Weaver 2.5-7x28 rimfire scope and Weaver serrated tip-off bases. Same cheap Federal bulk ammo.
Showing off the scope a bit more...
That ragged hole on the upper right is from three bullets; it is a five-shot group of about 1". I was standing up, and I braced my right shoulder against the wall, and put my left elbow on the bench, so the group was not shot offhand, but not properly supported either. So, 1" at 25 yds. = 4" at 100 yds., right? That's a little better already.
I'm hoping that with a proper rest, and not too much wind, I could get 2" @ 100 yds. with this crappy ammo.
I bought a box of Remington Subsonic today, as well as a box of Winchester Super-X. I still have the CCI MiniMag too. I'll try them all out next time I get to the outdoor range.
mustang_steve: I have to disagree about bullet drop being a serious issue after 60 yds. It really depends on the zero distance. With a 50 yd. zero, it will be about 2.5" low at 80 yds and 5" low at 100 yds.
With a 100 yd. zero, it is about 3" high at 60 yds., on at 100, 4" low at 120 yds., and 11" low at 150 yds.
Based on those two graphs, I would say 100 yds. is where it really starts dropping quickly. Holding over 4" might be doable. More than that is questionable, at least for me, hehehe.
But that is for HV ammo, and you may have been talking about subsonic.
Anyone think I can get MOA out of this rig with the right ammo? I'm willing to try some really spendy stuff if it looks like it is improving things.
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Smaug
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Oh, by the way, I did learn to break it down and I spent a good hour cleaning it tonight. It was really dirty. It seems like they're putting sand in the powder of that cheap ammo; I can't think how else it could've gotten there.
Interesting is that Marlin says that modern ammo is so clean, I never need to clean the bore, but that I should clean the action ever 250 rounds. I don't think that's gonna happen, but we'll see. I like this gun more every day. Much more than I should for a $130 gun. It's just so slim and trim and not finnicky.
Interesting is that Marlin says that modern ammo is so clean, I never need to clean the bore, but that I should clean the action ever 250 rounds. I don't think that's gonna happen, but we'll see. I like this gun more every day. Much more than I should for a $130 gun. It's just so slim and trim and not finnicky.
Maverick223
Member
Yep, maybe even half that. The scope (and rings) is definitely going to help too. Best first investment would be a box of Wolf Match Extra...or RWS Rifle Match...or Eley Match...even a box of Aguila Match will be a step in the right direction. Other than that, the trigger is the only thing that I would touch (to remove some of the creep + weight + unnecessary over-travel).
BTW, you do need to clean the bore, but only every brick or two (500-1k rnds.)...follow what your rifle (not the manual) tells you...it'll let you know when to break out the kit. Also, expect it to take a string, or perhaps even an entire box of ammo to straighten itself out and group normally after cleaning (it has to "re-lube" the bore after cleaning).
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Not exactly. Shooting MOA at 100yds is not as easy as at 50yds. Things really start to come apart at 100yds and 1MOA quickly becomes 2MOA. Especially with anything but match ammo. Takes a very good rifle, with very good match ammo, a light and crisp trigger and good optics to shoot MOA at 100yds with a .22LR.
double bogey
Member
I find with Federal bulk on the chronograph, I have deviation of about 40-50 fps. That is enough to cause 2" vertical stringing at 100 yds (I think). There's also that transonic thing. None of my 60's or any other of my .22's will do moa at 100 yds with this ammo. Most do 3"-5". I have several that will get 3/4" at 50yds with Federal. I have a couple that may with Wolf mt. they will do 3/8" at 50 yds with Wolf mt. I have not shot wolf at 100 yds yet. I think it takes a very good .22 and very good subsonic ammo to consistantly get moa at 100 yds. I know I am capable, as I have a couple of centerfires that shoot consistant 100yd. moa. Also the 60's have a horrible trigger.
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Smaug
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Attaching trajectories
Federal apparently doesn't like image linking to their site, so I'll attach the trajectories instead.
I couldn't find one on Remington Subsonic, just a statement on the box that it is 7.7" low at 100 yds. when zeroed for 50 yds.
I also wonder if the gun will cycle reliably with Subsonic. I didn't notice until now that the Subsonic ammo I bought only has 38 gr. bullets. 40 gr. would have been better.
I have seen Subsonic 22LR ammo with 60 gr. bullets; that seems like a neat idea.
Federal apparently doesn't like image linking to their site, so I'll attach the trajectories instead.
I couldn't find one on Remington Subsonic, just a statement on the box that it is 7.7" low at 100 yds. when zeroed for 50 yds.
I also wonder if the gun will cycle reliably with Subsonic. I didn't notice until now that the Subsonic ammo I bought only has 38 gr. bullets. 40 gr. would have been better.
I have seen Subsonic 22LR ammo with 60 gr. bullets; that seems like a neat idea.
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Maverick223
Member
Mostly depends upon the ammo. I have noticed that the Rem. C-Bees (which is a great cartridge for hunting because it opens up nicely) won't cycle in most any SA rifle, whereas many of the other types (particularly match, which is most often a 40gr. bullet just under Mach 1) will cycle fine.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Jeff, your model 60 is the rare exception, rather than the rule. The results Smaug has seen at 100yds are more realistic. One group on one day is one thing, several consecutive groups on any given day is quite another. Like I said, it takes a very good rifle with a proper scope and match ammo to do it regularly on a windless day. Even a rifle that shoots sub-MOA@100yds won't do much better than 4" at 200yds.
NCsmitty
Member
The more brands and types of rimfire ammo that you try, the better the chances of finding the best match to your rifle.
I have three 22 rimfire rifles and they all prefer different brands to achieve their best groups.
I have over 30 different types of 22 LR ammo in stock, and have chronographed many of those for my own information.
It's fun and educational.
If you sight 1" high at 50yds, it will be zeroed around 75yds. That is a common zero that many knowledgeable people use. It takes advantage of the trajectory of basic high velocity ammo. (1280fps)
I know many people shoot to 100yds, but that is stretching the trajectory of a 22 LR.
NCsmitty
I have three 22 rimfire rifles and they all prefer different brands to achieve their best groups.
I have over 30 different types of 22 LR ammo in stock, and have chronographed many of those for my own information.
It's fun and educational.
If you sight 1" high at 50yds, it will be zeroed around 75yds. That is a common zero that many knowledgeable people use. It takes advantage of the trajectory of basic high velocity ammo. (1280fps)
I know many people shoot to 100yds, but that is stretching the trajectory of a 22 LR.
NCsmitty
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Smaug
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NC: Do you remember where it hits at 100 yards when zeroed at 75? I thought it was just a couple inches low.
Maverick223
Member
IIRC 100yds. = roughly a 75yd. zero + about 5.0MOA with your basic bulk type ammunition.
NCsmitty
Member
It means, usually when I shoot 100yds, I use one of several centerfire rifles or handguns that I have.
I like using 22 rimfire for plinking and fun shooting, but for serious grouping I have a Remington 222, Contender in 223 and a few larger calibers. I even have 17HMR that will easily hold 1" at a hundred with Hornady 17gr.
If you're happy grouping 22 rimfire, then by all means, do what makes you happy.
NCsmitty
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You think I made that post because I've never shot at 200yds??? It sounds as if YOU are the one who has never actually tested on paper at 200yds.
Same reason why a half-MOA rifle at 50yds doesn't shoot half-MOA at 100yds. Now I'm wondering how much actual shooting you've done at those ranges. Shooting MOA at 100yds with the .22LR, consistently, is not an easy thing to do and you need a rifle/load combination that shoots sub-MOA at 50yds to do it. WIth the .22LR, things are starting to fall apart at 100yds. Wind is critical, as is your shooting technique, which needs to be near perfect. If you think an MOA rifle (at 50yds) can shoot MOA at 200yds, put your money where you mouth is and prove it. I know a certain 200yd benchrest shooter who would love to get ahold of your $100 Marlin that manages such a feat.
Sorry gents but no amount of wishful thinking makes a hundred dollar rifle shoot as well as an Anschutz.
My favorite rifle is my Marlin 60. Im on my second one, I had to replace the first one after about 10 years and more rounds than i can even guess at, probably over 100 thousand. Just before I retired it the groups would open up from an inch or two to six inches.
My new one has a tasco pronghorn 4x with leupold split rings. I never really put it on paper, but i usually just cut down saplings from about 50 yards with it.
My new one has a tasco pronghorn 4x with leupold split rings. I never really put it on paper, but i usually just cut down saplings from about 50 yards with it.
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Smaug
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Well, the way I see it, it is easier to measure the larger groups shot at longer distances, and the 22LR is capable of sub 1" groups.
If I shot at 50 yards, I'd have to measure center to center distances of something like 0.5". (assuming I get things dialed in.)
I'm going out to the range again now. Low wind, different loads, and I'm bringing the 77/22 as a control. It's got a new scope, (BSA Sweet 22, 2-7) which I need to get zeroed anyhow. We'll find out if it is the scope or the ammo today.
If I shot at 50 yards, I'd have to measure center to center distances of something like 0.5". (assuming I get things dialed in.)
I'm going out to the range again now. Low wind, different loads, and I'm bringing the 77/22 as a control. It's got a new scope, (BSA Sweet 22, 2-7) which I need to get zeroed anyhow. We'll find out if it is the scope or the ammo today.
Daveboone
Member
[
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveboone
Most model 60s have fine accuracy potential...within their limits. BUT...
organized .22 target shooting (with target grade rifles, sights, ammo) is done at only about 50 feet as I recall (at least the local rifle club leagues and high school leagues I know of).
"You must be thinking of air rifles. 22s in my club are shot at 100 yards. 50 yards is a common zeroing distance for 22s. One of my favorite gun writers, Sam Fadala, recommended in his The Book of Twenty-Two to zero a 22LR HV at 20 yards, and it should cross zero again at 80 yards and only be a couple inches low at 125 yards. "
Nope. The NRA sanctioned small bore leagues shoot at 50 feet indoors. (darn few longer indoor ranges that I know of).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveboone
Most model 60s have fine accuracy potential...within their limits. BUT...
organized .22 target shooting (with target grade rifles, sights, ammo) is done at only about 50 feet as I recall (at least the local rifle club leagues and high school leagues I know of).
"You must be thinking of air rifles. 22s in my club are shot at 100 yards. 50 yards is a common zeroing distance for 22s. One of my favorite gun writers, Sam Fadala, recommended in his The Book of Twenty-Two to zero a 22LR HV at 20 yards, and it should cross zero again at 80 yards and only be a couple inches low at 125 yards. "
Nope. The NRA sanctioned small bore leagues shoot at 50 feet indoors. (darn few longer indoor ranges that I know of).
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
50yds is the gold standard and yields the most "usable" numbers. Like I said before, it is more indicative of your rifle's potential and a more usable result. Shooting at 100yds is a little more problematic. Yes, some rifles are capable of MOA at that range but it is more difficult to achieve and a half inch at 50yds does not translate to one inch at 100yds. It just doesn't work that way, especially with bulk high velocity ammo.
But what do I know, never shot at 100yds, much less 200yds and don't have two dozen rimfires or anything like that. Must've just read it in a magazine article or something.
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