Even WWB 9mm ball seems to tumble in flesh

I dunno. Just cause FMJ can tumble in flesh doesn't mean that it will reliably or consistently do so. Until I see some tests or studies showing 9mm FMJs consistently and reliably tumbles or otherwise increases internal damage, I'd stick with HPs for self-defense.

Where are you getting these stories/studies from?

The bullet can hit the spine or another rigid object and start tumbling, expending most of its energy internally. That does not guarantee that the bullet will do this reliably. That is the reason JHP's were created.

Guy shot a deer with a 9mm NATO round through the neck and it left a fist sized exit wound.

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Yea right, I have to see the picture. I think the current record for a human taking hits from a 9MM is 32 rounds before falling.

let me preface my statement by saying that i do not personally own any firearms chambered for 9mm. I'm a .45 guy, but I'm not a .45 snob (until they make a .46)
That being said, i DO carry ball ammo in a couple of my carry pistols. But that's because they fire reliably and accurately in those weapons with no feeding issues.
Given my druthers, any SD weapon that will reliably and accurately cycle HP ammo will be fed HP ammo.

Owen Sparks said:

I think the current record for a human taking hits from a 9MM is 32 rounds before falling.

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Interestingly, I believe that comprises one full load for the magazine of the WW2 era German MP-40.

If I remember corectly this was some huge drunken biker who was on a suicidal rampage and did not care if he lived. The cop who shot him was on his third 15 round magazine when he finally put one in the guys brain. This happened back around 1990. Jeff Cooper wrote about it.

Tumbling may, and probably will, limit adequate penetration.

Tumbling is really not all that effective with short stubby pistol bullets that tend to roll over once and stop base forward in tissue. Any good hollow point should out preform it. Long rifle bullets cause more damage, especially .223 rounds with a canalure sometimes fragment as they turn sideways causing a much more serious wound. The .58 caliber 500 grain Minnie Ball of the Civil War was the most devistating as it had a hollow base that acted like a giant hollow point when it tumbled.

"energy transfer" or hyrdostatic shock"

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"Energy transfer" or "energy dump" is a term guys like to throw around to feel superior about the extra few ft/lbs their cartridge produces over another. It's only useful if the bullet design makes use of it. Because handguns lack sufficient velocity for the kind of cavity stretch we see with rifle rounds, direct contact with tissue is the wounding mechanism of a pistol bullet. if two handgun rounds expand to a similar diameter and penetrate to a similar depth, they'll have similar lethality, regardless of energy.

If energy deposited in the target was the component of lethality, a .25 ACP would be just as deadly as a broadhead arrow at 250 FPS. I don't think anyone can present that argument.

Hydrostatic shock (as a wounding mechanism) is basically what causes cavity stretch, and again, not associated with low velocity rounds. Yes, handgun rounds do impart some, but it's not enough to exceed the elasticity of the tissue, so the tissue will return to it's original orientation after the bullet passes through (minus the hole torn through it by direct contact with the bullet). But a rifle bullet at 3,000 FPS imparts enough of that shock to stretch the tissue beyond it's limits and create a permanent wound channel much larger than the bullet.

If you examine handgun wounds in soft tissue, you'll see a small hole of roughly bullet size with lots of bruising around it from the temporary cavitation that was enough to damage capillaries. The rifle wound will have shredded flesh and coagulated blood in a radius much larger than the projectile itself.

And what does this mean for the argument that FMJ is as lethal as HP or other expanding bullets? That the evidence presented is just anecdotal. In addition to it's smaller diameter as it passes through not being able to do as much damage, a typical FMJ does more pushing aside of tissue than tearing, as the sharp edges of an expanded HP will do. A 9mm FMJ may cause no more damage than shoving a 3/8" piece of round stock through the flesh, and as such, often cause little bleeding if they do not happen to hit an artery or an organ with massive bloodflow. This is why the survival rate for handgun wounds is so high (82%, if memory serves).

Use the best bullet available.

I carry FMJ's but in .45acp I'm not worried about stopping power, hyrdostatic shock, or tumbling. Thats why I like .45

I carry hollowpoints in my 9mm but my "emergency" stash of ammo is 9mm ball. It was to cost effective considering all the other supplies needed without going into debt to get it done.

If you're close enough (For me, I can hit a moving head-sized target from 10 yards or less) to make a comfortable HS, 9mm ball ammo will do just fine.

All I know is a whole freaking ton of people have been dying from 9mm sized holes since 1902 and they don't seem to be complaining much that the hole should have been a tad bigger.

All I know is a whole freaking ton of people have been dying from 9mm sized holes since 1902 and they don't seem to be complaining much that the hole should have been a tad bigger.

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Yes, they have. And a tremendous number of people have been surviving those holes, too.

Handguns are limited in effectiveness by their very design and the constraints thereof. Why further handicap their capability by choosing less effective bullets?

a hole in the right spot is lethal, no matter what size.

thats not what the thread is about.

We found Remington 115 fmjs are about the best one can get. Unlike some other brands out there they do not cause jams in Tec-9s or Mac-10s.

Shape can aid as well

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Here ya go, just like the_effect of the FMJ shape of 40 S&W which, for HD/SD needs/punch, works in an ammo pinch.. OMMV



I horde both types in 9mm and 40cal FMJ.. not to mention it is the cleanest shooting, and consistent loads w/accuracy I have ever shot..

IF you're a re-loader, you'll think each spent casing, "each" has been cleaned already when you look at it right after you fire them and pick them up..

Luck,


Ls

Couple elephant hunters told me that FLAT tip mono-metal slug (which they call monolithic solid) flies straight through skin/muscle/blubber and penetrates deepest.

I recall a few years back reading an article written by the FBI on a shooting involving a 9mm pistol. The gentleman in question was hit 32 times with a 9mm before it put him down. Seems like he was on something (ya think?). I know they had pictures to show us (I was in federal law enforcement at the time), and the bullets hit the guy everywhere you could hit someone, including 2 to the head!

I don't consider hard ball that effective of a round. The hardball may tumble when it hits a body, but it won't cause as much bleeding and damage to the body as one of the new hollow points, such as the Federal HST, Winchester Ranger-T, or something like that. The benefits of the hollow point that opens with more cutting edges on it can cause more arteries to be cut as it passes through the body. A hard ball that does not expand does not cause that damage.

I sincerely hope that, now that I'm retired from LE, that I never have to shoot to stop someone again. If I ever have to though, I want the absolute best bullet in my 45 that I can purchase. I want to give myself every edge I possibly can if I have to use my pistol. Why would someone want to deliberately limit themselves to what they carry in a weapon? Doesn't make any sense to me, except for possibly the cost of the ammo. I figure my life is worth the extra $15.00 it costs me for the ammo I carry. If I have to use my pistol, I want to make it home to my family at night. That's worth the extra money as far as I'm concerned. Your results may vary!

ChCx2744 said:

If you're close enough (For me, I can hit a moving head-sized target from 10 yards or less) to make a comfortable HS, 9mm ball ammo will do just fine.

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I've never seen someone stand completely still while you try and hit them in the head with your pistol. They're usually closing fast and running at you and good luck with a head shot!

"I've never seen someone stand completely still while you try and hit them in the head with your pistol."


For whatever it's worth he did say moving. Last I checked that was different than standing still.

While this is more commonly known to occur with 124gr NATO FMJ, I've been reading up on it and it appears that even the 9mm wwb 115gr FMJ tumbles after a few inches in flesh.

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If by common you mean around 1-.5% of the time. Do a little research and you will find that it zips straight through soft tissue almost all the time.

I wouldn't feel too bad about carrying ball, would you?

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I would feel like I short changed myself. I really like the winchester 9mm nato ammo I've got, that stuff is nice and hot. But, I know that my +P bonded jhps are a much better choice both with effectiveness and liability in mind. I'm not saying FMJ can't get the job done. But come on, it's 2011. Our ammo choices are so much better than they were even 30 years ago.

People are superhuman.