9mm vs 40

I like .40 and 357sig in small frame pistols and .45 and 10mm in large frame pistols. I can get better quality .40 ammo cheaper online than the crap 9mm WalMart sells. 9mm sucks IMO, I won't say it won't do the job for SD but the calibers I shoot are better and more fun to shoot also.

Having used the 40 Short and Weak for years as a law enforcement officer I didn't have any use for it. The 40 doesn't do anything I need done that can't be accomplished with a good 9MM. However, after a bit of horse trading I ended up with a case and a half of 40 and nothing to shoot it with. Time for a bit of hunting and I came across an old FN pistol in like new condition for an excellent price. My original intent was to shoot up the ammo and sell the pistol but now I find myself saving the cases and looking for reloading dies. What the heck, have one of each.

If it is a first gun, go with the 9mm is my thoughts

miles1 said:

Actually your partly right...the problem was recoil.One source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto ,more sources upon request.

.

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Wiki and your other sources are wrong. The FBI set a limit on recoil, before they ever started testing, that excluded full power 10mm. The limit was based on a certain weight bullet at a certain velocity. I don't remember the exact specifications. Public FBI documents and written material from the actual testers support this. Despite the often repeated Internet myth, they never tested anything other than the 10mm lite. They never adopted or issued the full power 10mm ammo. S&W realized they could match the 10mm lite load with a .40 caliber in a 9mm size platform. This would solve the too heavy and too big problem. The mistake they made was letting cat out of the bag. This allowed Glock to beat them to market.

The problem was the size and weight of the issued S&W. How could recoil have been the problem when the .40 they adopted matched the 10mm lite load and the new issue weapon was a liter gun.

THplanes said:

Wiki and your other sources are wrong. The FBI set a limit on recoil, before they ever started testing, that excluded full power 10mm. The limit was based on a certain weight bullet at a certain velocity. I don't remember the exact specifications. Public FBI documents and written material from the actual testers support this. Despite the often repeated Internet myth, they never tested anything other than the 10mm lite. They never adopted or issued the full power 10mm ammo. S&W realized they could match the 10mm lite load with a .40 caliber in a 9mm size platform. This would solve the too heavy and too big problem. The mistake they made was letting cat out of the bag. This allowed Glock to beat them to market.

The problem was the size and weight of the issued S&W. How could recoil have been the problem when the .40 they adopted matched the 10mm lite load and the new issue weapon was a liter gun.

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Care to provide your source so i can look into this?

my carry handguns are a 9mm sig p228 & 2 commander size 1911's in .45 auto. i love the .45 but don't like the capacity or the cost of practice & self defense ammo. i love my p228 and load it with 124gr +p gold dots, which i feel is a good round. i like the capacity of my sig but feel the 9mm round needs more energy. so im looking at getting a sig p229 in .40. i have a p226r in .40 but think its to big to carry and love the size & feel of my p228. 115gr. practice ammo is cheaper with the 9mm but i find a lot of .40 caliber hollow points on sale for less then most 9mm hp's. i usually pay $22-$25 for 50rds compared to $15-$25 per 20-25rds, becuse i believe these are police overruns. so for me it will give me a cartridge with more power & minimum loss of capacity and usually better prices on hollow points.

miles1 said:

Care to provide your source so i can look into this?

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Here's one Wiki got correct, for the most part anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S&W

From the FBI training unit. Page 4 is where the info is, but it's a good read overall, even I don't agree with everything in it.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

While this doesn't directly state this, I've seen other sources that indicated the max allowable recoil is based on the 185 gr .45 load. Don't know why they think the 185 gr is the best available load for the .45.

I'll add some others if I can find them.

http://www.pointshooting.com/fbi10mm.htm

THplanes said:

Here's one Wiki got correct, for the most part anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S&W

From the FBI training unit. Page 4 is where the info is, but it's a good read overall, even I don't agree with everything in it.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

While this doesn't directly state this, I've seen other sources that indicated the max allowable recoil is based on the 185 gr .45 load. Don't know why they think the 185 gr is the best available load for the .45.

I'll add some others if I can find them.

http://www.pointshooting.com/fbi10mm.htm

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I did read the sources you provided.The tests they did was a bit dated and i dont dispute that the 40 cal did provide over all better penetration, it doesnt account for factors such as the updated rounds currently used for the 9mm or the shooters ability to hit the target where it counts.When my wife and myself decided to look into different auto loaders we tried(using glock) a 9mm/40cal/45acp.Afterwards we both concluded the same thing which was we both shot the 9mm and 45acp much better then the 40cal.So we walked out with a glock 17 and glock 21.Now im not saying the 40 cal isnt a good round but if im worried about an intruder breaking into our home i wanna be sure we can consistanly hit the target without worrying about follow up shots.I used speer hollow points for HD that i got from a friend that is a retired police officer.When i asked him if it will be enough he said its more then plenty to get the job done.I have no reason to doubt him or anyone else that has told me the same.If were talking about just bullet penetration of a single 40 cal versus 9mm round then sure,i agree on average the 40 gets better penetration with all things being equal.But factoring in the shooters ability to aim with quick follow up and using the right ammon for HD then IMHO its a wash and dont feel under armed what so ever with my glock 17.Of course i know this has been argued a gizzilion times over in multiple forums multiple times but felt it has to be stated to anyone looking to buy a new gun that the 9mm for HD is not a bad choice what so ever.Of course this is just my 2 cents.....

miles1 said:

I did read the sources you provided.The tests they did was a bit dated and i dont dispute that the 40 cal did provide over all better penetration, it doesnt account for factors such as the updated rounds currently used for the 9mm or the shooters ability to hit the target where it counts.When my wife and myself decided to look into different auto loaders we tried(using glock) a 9mm/40cal/45acp.Afterwards we both concluded the same thing which was we both shot the 9mm and 45acp much better then the 40cal.So we walked out with a glock 17 and glock 21.Now I'm not saying the 40 cal isnt a good round but if im worried about an intruder breaking into our home i wanna be sure we can consistanly hit the target without worrying about follow up shots.I used speer hollow points for HD that i got from a friend that is a retired police officer.When i asked him if it will be enough he said its more then plenty to get the job done.I have no reason to doubt him or anyone else that has told me the same.If were talking about just bullet penetration of a single 40 cal versus 9mm round then sure,i agree on average the 40 gets better penetration with all things being equal.But factoring in the shooters ability to aim with quick follow up and using the right ammon for HD then IMHO its a wash and dont feel under armed what so ever with my glock 17.Of course i know this has been argued a gizzilion times over in multiple forums multiple times but felt it has to be stated to anyone looking to buy a new gun that the 9mm for HD is not a bad choice what so ever.Of course this is just my 2 cents.....

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My original post was to correct the common internet myth about the FBI's adoption of the 10mm and subsequent change to the .40 S&W. The links provided are old because they are from the period the FBI was making the change.
They are meant to provide accurate historical data. They are not presented to change anyones idea on what caliber they should choose. They are not intended address modern bullet design. They are strictly to document the FBI never tested or adopted full power 10mm. I use full power 10mm for home defense. But I carry mainly a micro .380. Sometimes it will be a 9mm or .40 compact.

.40 has a fair amount more stopping power than a 9mm. 9mm has less recoil and higher capacity. It's that simple. Choose which features suit you best.

In a pocket gun (Ruger LC9) i carry 9mm +p bc .40 is hell to shoot in a pocket sized gun and there isn't much gun selection for that caliber in that size. But thats only when my wardrobe won't allow my HK P2000sk in .40/.357 sig. For home defense my primary handgun is a Glock 21 SF.

klash545 said:

if you're going to pay for 40 might as well just get a 45 imho. i only shoot 9mm and 45 no reason to even look at a 40

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I think this sums it up perfectly.

I don't remember how much exactly but i do know that at my gun shop 9 and 40 are a dollar or two apart. 45 and 40 are more than $5 apart.

JustinJ said:

.40 has a fair amount more stopping power than a 9mm.

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No such thing as "stopping power" in a handgun. A 9mm +P runs just over 400 ft-lb of energy, most hot 40's are around 450 ft-lb. A 45 ACP +P will be just over 500 ft-lb.

A typical .223 will be just under 2000 ft-lb of energy and is considered to have very little "stopping power". There is a reason that they are illegal for hunting man-sized animals (deer) in most states. A 30-30 with just over 2000 ft-lb is considered minimum in most places.

In civilian use with good ammo there's not enough difference between any of the typical full size self-defense handgun calibers that anyone getting shot would be able to tell (military restricted to ball ammo is a different story).

Only things that will "stop" an attacker are loss of hydraulic pressure (bleedout), loss of electrical system (brain or spine hit), structural failure (broken bone), or psychological (mental decision on their part to stop what they're doing). Any of the handgun calibers being discussed are equally capable of causing any of the above results.

An 1/8 change in shot placement can easily cause the difference between a handgun round stopping someone or being totally ignored.

Here's a quick hint. Want to DOUBLE the stopping power of your handgun? SHOOT THEM AGAIN! Then keep shooting them till they're not a threat. That's the only kind of "stopping power" you're going to get from a handgun.

If you're using the Ultra-Zooper 99% one-stop nyclad-hollow-gold-talon ++++PPP and you really think a random hit with your fancy bullet is going to have a better chance of stopping someone than multiple center-of-mass hits with any full-size caliber, good luck to you.

Best thing the OP can do is get a handgun he likes in any of the major calibers and practice with it. Shot placement makes up about 99.99% of handgun "stopping power", the other .01% depends on the caliber .......

45_auto said:

No such thing as "stopping power" in a handgun. A 9mm +P runs just over 400 ft-lb of energy, most hot 40's are around 450 ft-lb. A 45 ACP +P will be just over 500 ft-lb.

A typical .223 will be just under 2000 ft-lb of energy and is considered to have very little "stopping power". There is a reason that they are illegal for hunting man-sized animals (deer) in most states. A 30-30 with just over 2000 ft-lb is considered minimum in most places.

In civilian use with good ammo there's not enough difference between any of the typical full size self-defense handgun calibers that anyone getting shot would be able to tell (military restricted to ball ammo is a different story).

Only things that will "stop" an attacker are loss of hydraulic pressure (bleedout), loss of electrical system (brain or spine hit), structural failure (broken bone), or psychological (mental decision on their part to stop what they're doing). Any of the handgun calibers being discussed are equally capable of causing any of the above results.

An 1/8 change in shot placement can easily cause the difference between a handgun round stopping someone or being totally ignored.

Here's a quick hint. Want to DOUBLE the stopping power of your handgun? SHOOT THEM AGAIN! Then keep shooting them till they're not a threat. That's the only kind of "stopping power" you're going to get from a handgun.

If you're using the Ultra-Zooper 99% one-stop nyclad-hollow-gold-talon ++++PPP and you really think a random hit with your fancy bullet is going to have a better chance of stopping someone than multiple center-of-mass hits with any full-size caliber, good luck to you.

Best thing the OP can do is get a handgun he likes in any of the major calibers and practice with it. Shot placement makes up about 99.99% of handgun "stopping power", the other .01% depends on the caliber .......

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This. ^^

P.S. Your energy calculations are way too high on the .223. A 5.56 NATO (more energy and velocity than a .223) sits around 1300 ft-lbs.

40 es muy mucho macho

M

For .40 I really, really, really recommend you go fire a gun in that caliber similar to one you would purchase (roughly the same size frame). Find a range that rents guns or find a friend that will let you shoot theirs. Go through a couple of magazines at least to give it a fair shake.

I ended up returning mine, I didn't like the nature of the recoil and ended up exchanging it for a .45. However, its a personal thing and I never bash on the .40 -- its a fantastic & top-notch defensive round. Maybe its one of those love it or hate it things in life.

I have no love for a .40....but love a .45
For some reason this round IMHO is hard to shoot well.....if I could only have one auto
it would be a 9mm beretta or sig .....I really like my Taurus PT917c
Seconf pic would be a Colt .45.....

gmh1013 said:

I have no love for a .40....but love a .45
For some reason this round IMHO is hard to shoot well..

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It's really no mystery. A Glock G17 is around 21oz. A G22 is around 22oz. A G21 is around 28oz. A .40 G22 has the weight of a 9mm G17 and the recoil of a 45acp G21. Similar comparisons hold for the M&P line. Often it's even more biased. People compare a composite .40 with all metal 38oz .45acp.

"No such thing as "stopping power" in a handgun. A 9mm +P runs just over 400 ft-lb of energy, most hot 40's are around 450 ft-lb. A 45 ACP +P will be just over 500 ft-lb."

Stopping power is a common term in gun culture for addressing a round's chances of neutralizing a threat as quickly as possible. I'm not going to get into an arguement of semantics.


"Only things that will "stop" an attacker are loss of hydraulic pressure (bleedout), loss of electrical system (brain or spine hit), structural failure (broken bone), or psychological (mental decision on their part to stop what they're doing). Any of the handgun calibers being discussed are equally capable of causing any of the above results."

I agree. So why are you comparing rounds by energy delivered? The deeper a round hits and the wider it expands the better the stopping power. A .25 more than a .22, a .32 more than a .25, a .380 more than a .32, a 9mm more than a .380, a .40 more than a 9mm and a .45 more than a .40. The difference between a 9 and .40 is not as great as that between a .22 and .45 but that doesnt mean the edge should be discounted.

"An 1/8 change in shot placement can easily cause the difference between a handgun round stopping someone or being totally ignored."

All else being equal, a .40 will do more damage than a 9mm and more likely to neutralize an adversary before they can inflict further harm. Many people have been shot by a round to the head without going down bc it hit a very narrow window that would have been missed with a different caliber.


Here's a quick hint. Want to DOUBLE the stopping power of your handgun? SHOOT THEM AGAIN! Then keep shooting them till they're not a threat. That's the only kind of "stopping power" you're going to get from a handgun.

If you're using the Ultra-Zooper 99% one-stop nyclad-hollow-gold-talon ++++PPP and you really think a random hit with your fancy bullet is going to have a better chance of stopping someone than multiple center-of-mass hits with any full-size caliber, good luck to you.

Best thing the OP can do is get a handgun he likes in any of the major calibers and practice with it. Shot placement makes up about 99.99% of handgun "stopping power", the other .01% depends on the caliber .......