UPDATE: OKC Pharmacist Jerome Ersland Convicted Of Murder

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sad state of affairs.

it's the robber's fault for putting the pharmacist in that position in the first place.

who's to say the pharmacist wasn't still threatened by the scumbag trying to get back up? maybe he was still trying to attack, you can still shoot someone while lying on the floor for pete's sake.

the pharmacist should be given the benefit of the doubt!!!

i hope he appeals, wins, then sues the crap out of governing body that prosecuted him!
I will say that there is some degree of "judicial incest" here, for the lack of a better term.

The Judge's (who presided over the case) wife works for the prosecuting DA. The lead defense attorney Box made a motion to have the judge removed because of this, and that motion was found (by the Court of Appeals) to be without merit. So the Judge stayed on the case. Also worth noting that Box's wife used to be the presiding Judge's clerk but no longer holds that position.

So in short, the Defense Counsel's wife used to be a clerk who was replaced by the DA's wife. The Court of Appeals saw nothing wrong with this.

Not saying that does or does not matter... but it might mean the Court of Appeals and/or Oklahoma court system has favorites (or any court system, for that matter). I think he will be luck to get an appeal heard and for the lower court to be overturned, nigh impossible.
 
who's to say the pharmacist wasn't still threatened by the scumbag trying to get back up? maybe he was still trying to attack, you can still shoot someone while lying on the floor for pete's sake.

Interesting. Probably hard to convince a jury that you felt realistically threatened by someone who was left lying on the floor inside a building once you've left that building.
 
^^so he left the building, then came back and shot the guy?

even if that's the case, it can still be self defense. bad guys laying on the floor with a gun are obviously still capable of shooting you.

however, if that was the case, that's certainly bad judgement to re-enter the building, and possibly illegal.

in my state, you have to take any possible avenue to remove yourself from the situation before you can use deadly force. there's no "stand your ground" law here like in FL (unfortunately).
 
^so he left the building, then came back and shot the guy?

Yes.

It's on the security camera video, quite clearly.

lpl
 
^^so he left the building, then came back and shot the guy?
From fiddletown's post No 29:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa

...Ersland does not appear to be at all concerned about the robber getting back up. After shooting the robber, he runs out of the store to chase the accomplice down the street. Ersland does glance at the robber on the floor briefly before running out of the store.

Ersland re-enters the store and walks back to the counter. Ersland walks at a normal pace past the robber on the floor without stopping to look at him. He does not keep his eye on the robber, he turns his back to him as he walks to the counter.

Then Ersland apparently reloaded his pistol (or possibly retrieved another pistol) while out of view of the robber but not attempting to take cover in any way. Then he walked at normal speed back over to the guy who was lying on the floor just out of the camera view, leaned over him a little, pointed the gun at him and apparently shot him. Then he went back to the counter, got the phone and called the police.

The phone was positioned such that it would have been very easy to maintain a view of the robber on the floor while calling the police. Ersland doesn't take that approach. Nor does he stay outside the store and call for the authorities from another location

So, yes. He shot, then left the scene of the shooting. Then returned. Then reloaded and/or got another gun and then he put 5 more rounds into the unconscious man on the ground.

even if that's the case, it can still be self defense.
Not really. If you're going to claim self-defense you need to be able to say (among other things) that you had no choice but to shoot. That violent action was required to preserve your life, safety, the life of another, or (in a very few cases) to prevent other serious felonies. If you are able to leave the scene -- in this case having obviously no need to do anything but continue to walk away -- your need to kill someone evaporates.

bad guys laying on the floor with a gun are obviously still capable of shooting you.
Oh sure. But not if they're lying on the floor inside a building and you've already left. When you come back inside to deliver a few kill shots, that's a premeditated action, not a defensive reaction you're forced to take by the actions of others.

in my state, you have to take any avenue to remove yourself from the situation before you can use deadly force. there's no "stand your ground" law here like in FL (unfortunately).
As we've discussed here at great length, "stand your ground" laws and "castle doctrine" laws are not exactly what they're usually claimed to be by either "our" side or the opposition. Killing someone still needs to be the only reasonable avenue left to preserve your life. A stand your ground law would in no way have made Ersland's actions legally justifiable.
 
^^yes, thank you. i'm aware that stand your ground and castle doctrine has been discussed on every internet gun forum in existence.


quite obviously, stand your ground does not mean you can run back into your place with the intention of executing the attacker.

however, if he simply ran back in to the pharmacy for a valid reason, say to render medical aid to the wounded gunman (if you're so inclined), and the robber became a threat again, he can indeed defend himself legally. ;)

if you're an atty, then i'll take your word for it. otherwise, your opinion is as valid as mine :)


posting an excerpt from a law or statute on an internet forums is largely useless. there is so much more written into laws and statutes that is open to interpretation by lawyers (including prosecutors).

personally, i would have never ran after the other robber, let alone re-entered the robbery scene. i would simply have waited outside for johnny law.
 
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I've told many people that have commented on self defense that bang, bang, bang, bang, bang for a good reason, you may come out okay but bang, bang, bang, bang, bang . . . . . . . bang and you are likely going to prison.

IOW, you can fire a lot of rounds at the moment the use of deadly force meets the standard but a few seconds later, you better have an extremely solid reason to fire another shot. Like the guy getting back up which wasn't the case.

Clutch
 
I'm amazed at the people that refuse to acknowledge the perp on the floor with the head wound didn't have a gun when he was shot at point blank range repeatedly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBBlEhmWNQ&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHshsgpsxFg&feature=related

It doesn't matter that the perp was a creep or a saint, a hardened criminal or a misguided youth. When you are no longer in immanent danger you can not justify continuing to shoot. You certainly can't justify getting a second weapon, walking up to the unarmed perp on the floor and then leaning over to shoot the perp repeatedly.

You can not seriously consider someone to be in immanent danger that is shown on video to run out of the space in pursuit of someone after having shot their accomplice to the floor, walk back into the space with the perp still on the floor and then walk up to the perp on the floor and shoot them repeatedly while the perp lay on the floor without a weapon.

Regardless of how agitated and flooded with adrenaline you are that would explain why you could fire repeatedly in the crisis of defending yourself and not know how many rounds you fired, you can't claim you were subject to a real threat when you're shown on video to not be in danger. You'll simply be guilty of murder and be convicted and probably be financially ruined and spend a considerable time in prison permanently loosing your rights as a citizen. We shoot to defend ourselves agains immanent danger and can not legally, ethically or tactically act as judge, jury and executioner.
 
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Hso, you are probably right but since family friends of ours were raped in front of the men and then executed in front of the men before themselves being executed and one of the that did this was released after 7 years then I cannot agree with this sentencing.
 
fiddletown: But under our legal system malicious intent is never justifiable.

Which is exactly my point...under certain circumstances, it should be.

fiddletown: So your comment here is nonsense.

I have my opinion. You have yours. Both are valid. If you don't understand what my point is...perhaps I've not communicated with clarity. I'll happily give it another attempt. In the meantime, please dispense with the gratuitous insults.


Part of the problem with the law is that the working vocabulary is complex, semantics count, and there is a wide difference of opinion concerning what constitutes justice. It's why lawyers and judges are required simply to decipher the technicalities for juries.

Several posters have spelled out legal definitions without noting that, common as many concepts are across the USA, precise definitions vary from state to state. Several posters have launched semantic arguments, berating the laymen among us for our lack of a legal education. I'm no lawyer. But I have a fairly precise and pragmatic world view concerning justice.

In any event, we have what we have...imperfect as that criminal justice system may be.

My issue is with the idea that the defendant HAD to be charged with some degree of murder, manslaughter, etc. I say he did not and that society's values (as expressed under current law) are askew.

I knew Ersland was guilty of a felony the very first time I viewed the video. Of course he was. As the law is written in most states, how could there be any other plausible outcome short of a Grand Jury refusing to indict?

Several other posters have implied that anyone carrying a CCW weapon must demonstrate an impeccably high level of situational awareness, morality, and tactical acumen when involved in a life and death struggle. That perhaps they must exhibit the equivalent due diligence we might require of a POST certified LEO. Or that a person be able to perform to highly trained standards and react (as trained) under fire while making near instantaneous judgement calls.

It's an interesting theory, but one that falls on its face when bullets meet bone for the average gun owner whose day job is shopkeeper.

Fighting for your life is a profoundly individual experience. The circumstances and outcomes are not predictable. You do the best you can and hopefully live to tell about it.

It's easy to say what should have been done or hypothesize about what line you'd never cross when you've never actually been there. And if you have been there...and had excellent preparatory training...and did everything RIGHT...and survived...you will come to realize that you were also simply lucky.

Even if he's a lying crank who had no business with a weapon, Ersland did society a service. For that, in my book, he gets a pass.

The law should reflect that grim reality and sanction such a killing. It doesn't.

YMMV.
 
There`s a line between using deadly force in self defense and a coup de grace. Who decides where the line is? The jury.
Murder 1 seems far fetched to me and a citizen victemized by criminal attack should be given some slack, but if the bullets that killed the guy were delivered after he was down, guess which way the jury will lean.
 
And folks what happens if you THINK the other guy is going for a gun, shoot him, then finish him off.. only to find out what you thought was a gun was something else.

No, you use force to stop the attack, but when the fight is over... it's over. Retribution should not be part of it. Let the courts do that.

Deaf
 
Just a short time ago they finally put to death 1 of 3 guys that committed horrible crimes against our family's friends 25 years ago. The Parker family. They came home from church and the guys shot Mr. Parker in the shoulder and then tied him and his son up and made them watch as they brutally raped Mrs. Parker and their young daughter. When they got finished with the daughter they put a gun inside her and emptied it. They then killed the rest after they were forced to watch the execution of their daughter. Oh yea, during this time they cut off their fingers with rings on them. After all this they set the house on fire and left. They were farmers and lived close to no one. One guy walked after a few years. One guy got life without parole, and one they put to death 25 years after the fact.
That sounds just like a book by Truman Capote -- except if I recall correctly In Cold Blood only had 2 villains.
 
Chindo18Z said:
fiddletown said:
But under our legal system malicious intent is never justifiable.
Which is exactly my point...under certain circumstances, it should be.
So you think it should. So what? The fact is that the law does not work that way, and our conduct needs to be guided by what the law actually is -- not by what we think it should be in some alternate universe.

Our political system offers you the opportunity to try to change the law. What are you doing to do so? If you're not doing anything, you opinion about what the law ought to be is doubly irrelevant.

Chindo18Z said:
fiddletown said:
So your comment here is nonsense.
I have my opinion. You have yours. Both are valid.
Nope, not all opinions are valid. You may be entitled to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's worth paying attention to.

My opinion is about what the law actually is. It's based on my training and experience as a lawyer with more than 30 years experience. Your opinion seem to involve some fantasy of how things ought to be based on some set of social theories that you seem to have pulled out of the air.

Our laws on self defense have evolved over several hundred years and have, in general, proved workable. Many people have successfully used lethal force in self defense and have yet managed to exercise sufficient self control to avoid crossing over the line.

Consider, for example, the watchmaker, Lance Thomas -- a shopkeeper who has successfully faced multiple armed robbers defending himself without exceeding the bounds of the justified use of lethal force. For more about him see this video and this article by Massad Ayoob.

The reality is that society and its laws will hold those of us who may choose to use lethal force in self defense to a very high standard. Society and its laws will excuse our infliction of violence on another human only to the extent we satisfy the long and well established standards for legal justification, i. e., when a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances would conclude that lethal force is necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, imminent death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. But we will not be excused our intentional infliction of violent injury on another if we overstep those bounds.

We may use lethal force without criminal liability to prevent immediate, otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. But if we use lethal force to exact revenge or in retribution, we have committed a criminal act and will be held accountable.

You seem to object to that reality. That is your prerogative. But your mere objection doesn't change things. And unless things do change, those of us with guns need to understand how things actually are.
 
Just like it should let me open up on someone who cuts me off on the interstate.

That depends. Are you the kind of person willing to kill someone over a traffic infraction or an insult?

I was addressing hypothetical outcomes and legalities resulting from a self-defense shooting during an armed robbery.



fiddletown: Nope, not all opinions are valid. You may be entitled to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's worth paying attention to.

Ahh...more insult. Pounding on the table are we? Please regale me with some fresh lawyer jokes...lawyers usually know the best ones.

I respect your 30 plus years at the bar. I've spent mine doing something else...

The fact that you don't agree with my opinion does not negate its validity. Play your games with someone more easily impressed.

I entered this internet discussion to do exactly that...discuss. I actually agree with a great deal of what you just said when you weren't being condescending and rude.

I'm simply discussing things to entertain myself on a forum. I really don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with all my thoughts nor am I about to embark on a one-person campaign to change the legal system. I just don't agree with it (or you).

Sorry 'bout that. :rolleyes:
 
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Chindo18Z said:
...The fact that you don't agree with my opinion does not negate its validity....
And exactly what validity does your opinion have? Your vision certainly does not obtain here, so your view of how things ought to be serves no purpose and can not help guide our conduct in the real world.

If you want to try to change things, have at it. But until things do change, if they ever do, our conduct needs to be guided by the way things actually are.
 
Don't take yourself so seriously Barrister. I certainly don't.

It's an internet forum.
 
Maybe we need a DON’T MESS WITH A GOOD GUY LAW. This law would give the good guy (the guy working at his job not causing any trouble) the legal right to kill anyone that has threatened his life before they can escape/get out of range of the good guy. Would seem to solve this case and probably prevent future robberies.

fiddletown
our conduct needs to be guided by the way things actually are.

True, but can't a guy dream?:confused:
 
Folks,

A reminder - the purpose of discussion here in ST&T is to generate as much light as possible to illuminate the issues, without simultaneously emitting unnecessary heat. Please remain calm and maintain proper decorum... I understand how much this case generates a visceral response from a lot of people, I've watched it being discussed on several boards for a couple of years now. But this is the only one I'm charged with helping moderate, and I'd rather not get put to work doing that any more than necessary.

Thanks,

lpl
 
Chindo18Z said:
Don't take yourself so seriously Barrister. I certainly don't.

It's an internet forum.
But it's also a place to which people come to learn. And folks will come away from these discussions with ideas about what they can and can't do.

True, these exercises can not, and should not, be a substitute for proper training and education in use of force matters. Nonetheless, for many this is all the training they get. That's too bad, but we should at least try not to actively confuse or mislead folks.

Bullet said:
...but can't a guy dream?
Dream all you want. But it's probably a bad idea to confuse your dreams with reality.
 
Zxcvbob, I don't know anything about a book. They lived in north Mississippi in a small town and were known by everyone in town.
I'm not doubting you; not much anyway. Just saying it resembles the book "In Cold Blood" by Capote. If you ever watch the movie (I don't remember a lot about it, other than it took place in Kansas rather than Mississippi), even when the bad guys get it in the end you don't feel good about it. That's the most compelling thing about it -- justice is served but instead of a victory, killing the bad guys (who definitely deserved it) feels hollow because everybody is still dead.
 
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fiddletown
Dream all you want. But it's probably a bad idea to confuse your dreams with reality.

True.

I do agree with you that as good law abiding citizens we who choose to have a gun for self defense should obey the laws in regards to its use, which didn't happen in the case of Ersland.
 
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