U.S. Army Mental Health Survey Concerning Private Firearms Ownership

Part of the survey is designed to exonerate the govt from blame because the new anti malarial drug mandated by the military causes suicide. Suicide is one of the possible side effects of the new drug. That is probably the reason why non combatants are now committing suicide. You will notice that the STARRS survey does not mention anto malarials. This new drug is not related to the old style anti malarials.

Neverwinter said:

What about the possibility for distribution of access to mental health treatment based on correlations about susceptibility to conditions such as PTSD?

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Susceptibility to PTSD because you own a gun? I think PTSD is a little overrated, but of course I support treatment for it and believe it should be available to all our veterans at any point in their life. I don't think gun ownership is a sign of PTSD.

Neverwinter said:

If being a gun owner is a sign of elevated risk, shouldn't the resources be spent to address that?

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Being a gun owner is not a sign of mental illness, never has, never will be. It is just a tool. Cars kill millions each year. I own two cars, does that make me more likely to have mental illness? Sure some crazy people own guns, but there are much more reliable signs of mental illness that even a newbie psychiatrist fresh out of school should know.

You think any of us actually take the dioxycyline? Vivid nightmares and other psychological side effects are not good in a pill specifically given to troops in combat zones. That the Army hasn't been called out on that yet is ridiculous.

Ben86 said:

Susceptibility to PTSD because you own a gun? I think PTSD is a little overrated, but of course I support treatment for it and believe it should be available to all our veterans at any point in their life. I don't think gun ownership is a sign of PTSD.



Being a gun owner is not a sign of mental illness, never has, never will be. It is just a tool. Cars kill millions each year. I own two cars, does that make me more likely to have mental illness? Sure some crazy people own guns, but there are much more reliable signs of mental illness that even a newbie psychiatrist fresh out of school should know.

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Would they even submit to an examination by the psychiatrist given the stigma associated with it?

If you're interested in the incidence of mental illness among car owners, you're free to conduct such a study.

Army mental docs don't give exams. You spend a maximum of 10-15 minutes and come out with a label(PTSD) and a prescription. Yet another reason people won't go to them.

Heretic said:

I have been told the soldiers discharged from the military cannot but a gun anymore. Something about PTSD. It's in their records, whether they have it or not.

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Even if PTSD is in your medical records when you separate from service, and even if you are receiving VA compensation for PTSD, you can still purchase firearms and obtain a CCW. If you are declared mentally unfit by a court (civilian judge) and someone is appointed to manage your affairs, then that will most likely be reported to the folks who manage the National database in WV.

CathyGo
Doxy is an antibiotic
It's the otherstuff that some have had/claim messes with your head,
and yes, my unit took theirs, but then we where there for winter both times, so we didn't have to take it long. And, I don't know about your unit, but there was a pill formation, and everybody got checked.

Would they even submit to an examination by the psychiatrist given the stigma associated with it?

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I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying given the false stigma of crazy gun owners they should be submitted to further examination if it is discovered they own guns?

If you're interested in the incidence of mental illness among car owners, you're free to conduct such a study.

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No thank you. But, I care to venture that I will find that mental illness and car ownership are unrelated. Much like gun ownership. Most likely more sane people own guns and cars than insane people. It would be a useless study to prove the obvious.

Shadow 7D: The other drug you were trying to remember is Mefloqine (Lariam). This is a synthetic quinine tablet reputed to cause certain mental issues (schizoid behavior / bizarre dreams) among a certain percentage of those dosed. I took it for a year in the 'Stan. No problems.

CathyGo: Doxycycline (an antibiotic) is also used as a preventative treatment for malaria. Have taken that one during trips to Africa. No reports (that I'm aware of) of any mental health side effects.

"Army Mental Docs" preach radical muslim thought and nobody raises an eyebrow until they slaughter the soldiers? Why don't they give a radical muslim survey?

I once told my doctor at the VA that all of these guys volunteering for the army were crazy and in a few years she was going to have to deal with them. I explained that I knew this to be true because I o
volunteered, later volunteered for Vietnam where I volunteered for lots of special missions and I knew I was crazy. She said she is retiring.

HeHe thats funny
I jumped out of perfectly good airplanes, only had an engine fall off once, and the bastard didn't even let us out, really an engine fell off and you want to land, no thank, I'll take the fire escape before the wheels fall off...

Yeah, Larium, I never got the dreams, did get woken up by the platoon sleepwalker running, (in his bivy sack) having a not nice dream, and listened to the morning "well I had a dream about X" last night. No psychosis, no schizophrenia, But then the guys I was with, we might have written it off as normal.

I'm fully aware that it is an antibiotic. That doesn't make it harmless. I'm also aware that most places specify 3 months as the upper limit. We are expected to take it daily for over a year. The vivid nightmare thing happened to people I'm currently with NOT people on the other drug.

We don't have pill formation because even our leadership won't take the stuff.

It is nice to have a supply of antibiotics for stuff like infected cuts or bad acne breakouts. That's about the limits of its usefullness.

Your chain of command, going well past the Pentagon, does not like the fact that more Soldiers suicide than get killed in combat, find it embarrassing when a Soldier suffering PTSD goes nut case and wacks a few family members, and is caught butt naked when a Medical Doctor they trusted , Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, turns out to be a Jihadi and takes out 13 soldiers.

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Could it be that people with suisidal tendancies are drawn to dangerous occupations like the military? There is also a high rate of suicide for risk takers with other dangerous lifestyles such as recreational drug users.

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I read an article about suicide rates among population groups and why people kill themselves. It is a complicated subject. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126971.900-why-do-some-people-kill-themselves.html

Someone who develops anorexia is 50 to 60 times more likely to kill themselves than people in the general population. No other group has a suicide rate anywhere near as high.

Soldiers and police who have been shot at or seen their colleagues injured or killed are known to become inured to the idea of their own death. Both groups also have a higher-than-normal suicide rate. Similarly, doctors and surgeons who witness pain, injury and death are more likely to be able to contemplate it for themselves - the suicide rate for doctors is significantly higher than for the general population.

The article states there are two conditions necessary for suicide:

First, the person must have a serious desire to die. This usually comes about when people feel they are an intolerable burden on others, while also feeling isolated from people who might provide a sense of belonging.

Second, and most important, the person must overcome the self-preservation instinct.

Given that many American Soldiers have seen combat, been on long deployments, the frequency of deployments is higher than it has ever been, this is negatively effecting the morale of the military community. Many Soldiers are extremely depressed.

The command structure is extremely worried about the incidents of suicide, Jihadi actions, spousal killings.. They noticed a high use of firearms in these incidents and are therefore populating a database.

You have to seriously consider your responses as your answers may have long term repercussions. Once they stamp you with the label “Armed Nutcase”, the ink won’t come off.

For all tests, you must put yourself in the mind set of “what are they looking for”, and “how do I appear to be the most normal, predictable, and obedient employee in the world”. The organization is looking for people who are totally committed to the goals of the organization. Big organizations are totally psychopathic and consider their personnel as disposable for the goals of the organization. They want calm and productive livestock. Even as they ship you off to the abattoir.

The fact that the test asked about gun ownership doesn't necessarily mean they consider it to be a sign of mental illness -- they could have just been trying to find out what percentage of people who report signs of mental illness also own/carry firearms.

Though I don't find this survey to be particularly offensive the way you describe it, this thread has brought up a lot of other instances of negative things servicemen have to endure. Just several more reasons why I will never enlist.

We don't have pill formation because even our leadership won't take the stuff.

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Enjoy Malaria.

Ya know, a few years ago, a Liberia-deployed USMC unit took the same attitude...28% of the force contracted Malaria and the CoC was relieved.

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-10383.html

http://www.ajtmh.org/content/83/2/258.abstract

I've been deploying in an out of malarial climes for years with Army Special Forces and we have yet to see anyone have issues with Doxycycline. We don't get Malaria either...all except for one guy too smart for his own good. He didn't adhere to the prophylaxis, definitely got Malaria, and had to be medevaced from the middle of nowhere while on a combat operation.


With regard to Military Mental Health Surveys, PTSD, firearms ownership, etc. ...

1. Military surveys are usually conducted, monitored, collated, and updated by a wide range of contracted providers; these folks have a paid job as long as they continuously process troops through their program and show an ability to deliver product. It isn't that their motives are suspect or that there isn't a need to react to a problem or social issue, but... no data showing a problem = no further employment. Be careful how you answer such questions, as your individual labeling becomes an indelible fact...and the folks doing the labeling tend to have a myopic vision that seeks to label everyone. Admit to having three or four drinks at a Memorial Day BBQ on a health assessment survey, and some social worker will be ready to label you as a Binge Drinker and recommend Substance Abuse Counseling. Admit to problems sleeping upon return from deployment and the fact that you saw a dead person in a car wreck and some Health Care Provider may decide you have borderline PTSD. I'm oversimplifying, but you'd be amazed at some of the Soldier misdiagnoses I've seen. Especially where they fail to diagnose someone who has legitimately rung every bell for exhibiting clinical PTSD / TBI... and then wonder why that service member spiraled out of control.

2. Some government or military surveys are indeed the pet rocks of someone attempting to secure grant money. Occasionally, force-wide surveys are simply vehicles to collect enough data for someone's advanced degree dissertation. Permission to execute such a survey is simply leveraged through job position and as another dubious enterprise from the "Good Idea Fairy". The military makes for a uniquely large captive audience and sampling pool for those inclined to do research and able to get permission to do so.

3. The military is an institution that is existentially concerned with enforcing control, order, and discipline among its personnel. The command hierarchy is NOT a culture of gun enthusiasts, although many senior folks are avid hunters, shooters, and outdoorsmen. The climate is more reminiscent of a class-stratified socialist society, where guns are "OK" for the more reliably proven career employees, but general and unconstrained ownership at lower levels is regarded as a potential headache. Unlike in civilian society, military commanders exercise broad powers to permit, forbid, proscribe, or regulate the actions and activities of their employees, both on and off duty. Historically, most base or large unit commanders prefer not having to deal with firearms as a social issue and regard weapon ownership as something to be tightly controlled (in the same manner as military issue weapons). In other words...best locked up when not in "sporting" use at the range.

4. The military, more than any other large employer in American society, finds itself in the recurring glare of public scrutiny. Especially by the media looking for a story, social activists or engineers looking to further an agenda, and congress-critters posturing for voters. If Soldiers commit suicide, the issue is elevated into the national news cycle. If Microsoft employees do the same, there isn't a blip on the radar.

Not enough body armor in the combat zone? Implement a full tilt over-reactive pendulum swing to ensure that everyone gets so much body armor to wear that they can no longer function while walking. Legitimate stories of poor health care for combat veterans result in much needed improvement, but at the same time, cause every functionary in the system to stretch the definitions of things like PTSD.

Pretty soon, there is an effort to grasp at straws when confronting issues like elevated suicide rates among the employee population. The leadership desperately feels the need to do something. They are being raked over the coals on a daily basis by vacuous reporters on cable news. They are losing people to something they can't quite put their arms around. Shazzam...we wind up with surveys designed by social workers and executed by the latest medical consultant to sidle up to the Federal contracting nipple.

Several millions of dollars later, a lengthy report will detail the fact that service members have been rode hard and put away wet since starting regularly recurring overseas deployments from ~1995 until present. Our units have been in a succession of Peace Enforcement or Combat operations for over 15 years, with back-to-back multiple deployments for almost all. THAT's the well-spring of increased suicides, divorces, etc. There is no Selective Service Draft and there is no National War Effort on the part of American Society. The same relatively small force of professional volunteers keep going back to the grindstone...over and over. The first term enlistees and junior officers have the usual tough experiences of combat. Those that stay for a career just get to absorb those experiences repeatedly. The culture calcifies into one which regards lengthy tours in the combat zone as just the normal cost of doing business. Additionally, each cyclical batch of fresh leaders & commanders is determined to win the war on their short watch; there is short thrift for those who can't hack it. Everyone (including loved ones back at home) is expected to "suck it up". Unfortunately, not everyone can. Personal problems are inevitable and some choose to take a permanent way out. It's a tough lifestyle.

The causality of suicides in the military is not really that complicated.

Ben86 said:

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying given the false stigma of crazy gun owners they should be submitted to further examination if it is discovered they own guns?

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No, the question was "Would they even submit to an examination by the psychiatrist given the stigma associated with the possible outcome of the mental health examination?"

Subsequent replies have indicated that they would, but would simply lie on them. That response will lead to misdiagnoses, and it might be the norm.

What an outstanding, well thought out, and reasoned post Chindo18Z.

Then again , why wouldnt they buy them at Bass Pro shops , if they havent committed a crime (yet) , they can buy them anywhere just like everyone else , personally unless you have citizenship you shouldnt be allowed to buy a firearm here in our country , I dont know of too many countries that allow foreigners to buy /own firearms !

personally unless you have citizenship you shouldnt be allowed to buy a firearm here in our country , I dont know of too many countries that allow foreigners to buy /own firearms !

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I don't know of too many countries that let their citizens buy firearms!

I have to disagree with you about the citizenship requirement though. My wife is a lawful permanent resident and has lived here for about 8 years now and is working on her citizenship. She has never been arrested or even got a traffic ticket, I see no reason why she shouldn't be able to buy a gun. As long as they are here legally in the first place and are law abiding otherwise I see no problem.