Which Firearm for Home Defense?

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I gotta ask. What kind of gun shop can't get a Sig P226? It is one of the most popular handguns in the country...

You may be able to find a very nice used 226 or a law enforcement trade-in online.
 
If you want a SIG, get it. I've got one in 40 and it's nice. You should look at the re-certified guns. Should save you a little coin. SIG is a little higher cost, but they are nice. I've switched to S&W M&P because I think it's better for competition within my budget and also because of the double action first shot requirement. But for a range/home defense gun the SIG is great.
 
A handgun is fine for home defense. The idea that shotgun pellets don't penetrate walls is a commonly circulated fallacy. Check out this ballistics comparison:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION

The shotgun also has the disadvantage of being a 2-handed weapon, which can limit your ability to do other things. Here's a good video by Massad Ayoob discussing the limitations of a shotgun for HD (start at about 2:15):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kjt4TLrcEo&feature=related

If you want a pistol, get a pistol. If you want a SIG P226, get the 226. You're generally better ordering it online and having it transferred through a local FFL because the internet has the best variety and often the best prices, plus no sales tax. Supporting local businesses is great, but don't compromise on a major purpose on that account.
 
A handgun is fine for home defense. The idea that shotgun pellets don't penetrate walls is a commonly circulated fallacy. Check out this ballistics comparison:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...VERPENETRATION

The argument is not that shotgun pellets can't penetrate walls. The argument is that a shotgun pellet penetrating a wall is far less likely to be lethal than a pistol round penetrating a wall.

How 'bout you post a link to that fact
 
Have you found a range that rents firearms? That's the best way to see which firearm you are most comfortable with.

I have a Beretta 92FS for home defense. (The .44mag is a little excessive, though I do have specials in it when it's sitting in the safe.)
 
rogerjames said:
The argument is not that shotgun pellets can't penetrate walls. The argument is that a shotgun pellet penetrating a wall is far less likely to be lethal than a pistol round penetrating a wall.

How 'bout you post a link to that fact

If you think that's the case, the burden of proof is on you. I already posted my info regarding penetration of shotgun pellets versus handgun bullets.
 
The argument is not that shotgun pellets can't penetrate walls. The argument is that a shotgun pellet penetrating a wall is far less likely to be lethal than a pistol round penetrating a wall.

How 'bout you post a link to that fact
While buckshot may not penetrate walls as much as a rifle or handgun round, it will still be quite deadly in the average home.


This shows 2 3/4", 00 Buck, 9 pellets penetrating 7 sheets of drywall, which would be equivalent to 6 1/2 walls. Pretty lethal in most homes...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
 
I would get the P226, you may want to try http://www.impactguns.com/ or Buds http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php and have it delivered through your LGS. SIG is one of the few manufacturers that have quality Tritium night sights available. H&K, CZ offer glow in the dark sights but not Tritium, perhaps a Glock G17 or G34 with aftermarket Tritium sights installed, not real fond of the factory plastic sights. I used a P226 .357SIG for my HD pistol for many years, just replaced it with a G17 with Trijicon night sights and a Surefiire X400 light / laser combination. G17 and X400 were cheaper together than a new P226 with a rail and no light.
 
@ DevilDog0402: Good link. Note that on the previous page it also shows #4 buck giving similar penetration.
 
If you think that's the case, the burden of proof is on you. I already posted my info regarding penetration of shotgun pellets versus handgun bullets.

Do you understand that "shotgun" tells us nothing about the cartridge being used? Do you understand that a 12ga can shoot buckshot, birdshot, slugs, etc?

Your link uses 00 buckshot as their shotgun load :rolleyes:

Nobody that I know would recommend 00 buckshot as a home defense round. Most would suggest something more akin to #4 buckshot for home defense, specifically to avoid some of the penetration issues demonstrated by your link.

Shotgun does not tell you anything about penetration.
 
Read the rest of the linked article. At the end, they specifically talk about #4 and birdshot loadings being ineffective for defensive purposes. Also note that the #4 buck penetrated six sheets of drywall in the test.

EDIT: By "linked article" I'm referring to the one DevilDog posted.
 
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

This is the entrance of the slug into the 12th board, along with the expanded slug.
Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.
 
It's a matter of degree, and one I don't think is worth the amount of emphasis some people give to it. The fact is that the buckshot penetrated multiple walls. The fact that it doesn't "over-penetrate as much" as a pistol bullet is of minor consequence, because it does overpenetrate. Hence, you could very well kill an innocent behind a wall while using a shotgun for home defense, so you still need to be mindful of backstop just like you would with a pistol or rifle.

Once we accept that shotgun pellets do overpenetrate (albiet less than a bullet does), it's on more even footing for comparison with a handgun. The points Ayoob makes in the video I posted are relevant to this comparison. Both guns have advantages and disadvantages, and it's perfectly reasonable to prefer one of the other. Claiming that the shotgun is the single best HD weapon under every circumstance is not reasonable, and most people who make that claim do it on the misguided assumption that a shotgun won't overpenetrate.
 
Once we accept that shotgun pellets do overpenetrate (albiet less than a bullet does), it's on more even footing for comparison with a handgun. The points Ayoob makes in the video I posted are relevant to this comparison. Both guns have advantages and disadvantages, and it's perfectly reasonable to prefer one of the other. Claiming that the shotgun is the single best HD weapon under every circumstance is not reasonable, and most people who make that claim do it on the misguided assumption that a shotgun won't overpenetrate.

Ok, let's get a few things straight.

First of all, we are not dealing with absolutes, we are dealing with relatives.

Absolutely, you could be hit through a wall and killed by a shotgun pellet.

In relative terms, we are concerned with probabilities and minimizing risk, not absolutes.

Your link shows that ... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm... shotgun loads penetrate 1/2 as far as 9mm loads!

In addition, an 00 buckshot pellet weighs 3.49g and #4 buckshot weighs 1.34g. A common 9mm bullet is 115 or 124g! So it penetrates twice as far and weighs 97x's more!

To break this down for you, you would have to get hit with 32 00 buckshot pellets to equal the weight of a 9mm round, and they would still hit penetrate half as far. :uhoh:
 
Which Firearm for Home Defense?
Hey everyone,

1st time gun owner here, and I'm looking for my first home defense firearm. Unfortunately my LGS owner is unable to get ahold of the SIG P226 that I so dearly want, so I have to start researching all over again. I'm looking for a 9mm.

I've been to multiple gun shows looking for firearms, and have held many Berettas, Springfield Armory, Para Ordnance, etc. I also prefer a metal frame moreso than polymer pistols.

What would your recommendations be for a 1st time pistol owner?

As others have said, if your LGS can't get a P226, get a new LGS or tell yours to stop being lazy. Sigs aren't exactly rare...

As for which 9mm Metal frame gun you should get...well, you have many good options. Sig (as you have already expressed a liking for) makes a very nice gun. So does CZ (as others have mentioned), Beretta, Smith and Wesson and Ruger all make good quality metal frame 9mm guns. Most of these guns have the same mode of operation, DA/SA operation (if you dont know what this means, just ask, someone will be happy to explain it.

Here is a short list of guns that are roughly equivalent to a Sig P226 in terms of size, capacity, and function.
- CZ75B and variants. Excellent accuracy (maybe better than Sig), reliability at a midrange price. Buy with confidence.
- Beretta M92 and M9A1 (the military designation of the M92). Good accuracy, reliability at similar price to a CZ. The US Military uses Berettas, so despite what some haters say, they are bound to be very good guns.
- Smith and Wesson 5906 or other older metal frame Smith 9mm. These are out of production, but are available used. I have no personal experience with this particular model, but Smith has a good reputation. I would have no hesitation about buying a used Smith as long as I could check it over first.
- Ruger P85MKII and P89. This was Ruger's entry into the US military trials to compete with the Beretta and Sig back in the mid 1980's. I dont know if Ruger actually submitted these for testing in time, but they are good guns. Cheap on the used market (they stopped production a couple years back), very reliable with decent accuracy. These guns have a fairly heavy trigger that can be difficult for some shooters. I have a P85MKII and I trust my life to it, it's my nightstand gun.

You really wont go wrong with any of these guns. If you can try before you buy, you should.

I would encourage you to explore the polymer frame guns before you buy. Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P's, Springfield XD's are all Excellent guns at reasonable prices. Glocks do not have a manual safety which bothers some folks, but they are super simple and easy to use. The Smith M&P and Springer XD can both be had with a manual safety if you prefer. I have shot all of these guns and I like them all pretty well. I own a Glock 20SF in 10mm, but if Smith and Wesson made an M&P in 10mm, I would trade my Glock in and get the M&P for the ergonomics. I will say that the Polymer guns tend to feel different in terms of recoil, they are lighter (in mass) and when compared side by side with a metal gun, I feel that they are a bit snappier.

If you are really new to handguns, make sure you get LOTS of practice ammo and spend some quality time with your new gun, whatever you get. Any of the guns I have mentioned should serve you well, but only if you take the time to get good with it.

Good Luck.
 
@ rogerjames: You're mistaking grams and grains in that comparison. A 00 pellet weighs about 3.5 grams, which is about 54 grains.

It's true that the bullet will penetrate about twice as much, at least in terms of drywall. That's a disadvantage of choosing a handgun over a shotgun for HD, but it's not enough reason enough for anyone to proclaim that a handgun is downright inappropriate or inferior as a HD weapon. The handgun has other benefits, probably the most significant of which is being operable with one hand. This allows you to do other things like using a phone, opening doors, carrying things, and so on while still being ready to shoot.
 
Not sure it even needs repeating at this point, but I agree with the majority: find a different LGS or order online. Buds is good. The P226 is a great 9mm, and one of my all time favorites. If that's what you want, "stick to your gun" if you'll pardon the pun, and get it from a place that sells them.

I can't imagine a LGS that doesn't carry SIGs, or at least wouldn't help you order one.

p.s. I'm really hoping the shotgun penetration discussion can either cease or move to another thread, that's been discussed almost as much as "which firearm for home defense". ;)
 
I like CZ's for the money too, but my advice would be this:

Go to all the gun stores in your area. Hold all the pistols you like.
One will feel right in YOUR hand.

Forget what everyone tells you.

Oh, and buy quality to start.
 
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