What has happened to the QC at S&W?

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I conjunction with Stainz response,
Smith and Wesson produces some of the finest firearms thay have ever made, yet they still remain hindered by poor managerial decisions, i.e.
the goofy safety lock,
the two piece crush fit barrel,
the Sigma,
their less than perfect accociation with Walther,
Hiring CEOs without conducting adequate background checks,
Releasing new designs onto the market without having them sorted out first which then hinders the buying public while fixes are implemented through a series of "recalls" it goes on and on.

S&W is a great American manufacturing firm that could and really should be so much better.
 
my god, how is this possible? EVERYONE knows that SW makes the worlds greatest super duper revolvers, and that anyone who is unhappy with one they buy is either stoopit or <deleted -- Sam>..

You know, after reading these boards for a little bit myself and after deciding to actually get one of these "IT'LL EXPLODE IN YOUR HAND OMGBBQ!" and it well .. not exploding in my hands ... OMGBBQ ... I do have to say one thing:

For every irrational old school basher there is three crickety old guys who refuse to accept anything made in the last fifty years is worth anything. And that, sadly is my experience from these boards.
We have some good folks, but in terms of fanboys, S&W has probably the most rabid ones. Or at least the most rabidly coherent ones.
 
Does anybody have any idea how many handguns S&W produces each year? It goes without saying that if just ONE of those hundreds of thousands of guns had a defect somebody would get on the I-net and tell the whole world about it. Its amazing how many people become instant experts on manufacturing technology when they get a computer in front of them and tune into a gun forum! There are a very few objective gun reviews out there. Is Gun Tests still in publication? I'd no more take somebody's opinion about the QC of a brand from the internet than I'd take legal advice from the same source. A healthy dose of skepticism is appropriate whenever this topic raises its ugly head.
 
I bought a smith and wesson m&p 340 right around the end of April and took it to the range and shot maybe 50 rounds of 357. First thoughts wow this is awesome. However, when I went to clean it there was a "dent" in the barrel. I called S&W and got a label to ship it. It took one week from date sent to date it arrived and they replaced the barrel. As far as quality control not so hot but the customer service is readily willing to help. just my 2 cents
 
Toyota owners probably said the same thing.

Hey! My Echo has 160K on it, burns NO oil and still gets 40-50 to the gallon. :neener:

Nice to know they dis Smiths, too. Thought it was only Taurus. Lots of good guns out there both brands, but when you buy, CHECK OUT THE GUN, as Fuff already said. I don't care what the brand is, YOU HAVE to do this to avoid the lemons now days.

Main thing I got against NEW Smiths is they cost way more than their QC justifies, in most models. The used ones bring a premium down here because people have figured this out.
 
OP - I don't think its a 442 thing. The reason they didn't shoot the breeze with you about the specific problems over the phone is because that's not productive during the call; the person answering the phones is not the person who will be fixing your gun. The receptionists job is to determine what needs to be done, and direct you to the proper course of action. Sounds like that is exactly what he/she did. ;) My call went the same way when I needed to get the firing pin checked in my 310.

Also, while they may SAY 6-8 weeks, I highly doubt it will be that long. When I sent my 310 in, they had the shipping label to me in two days, and the repaired gun returned to me (with a longer firing pin) about a week after I mailed it.
 
Most all my Smiths are P@R ones. 30+yrs old. l own a couple new ones. 0ne with a lock. All are beautiful. The basic Smith hand ejector design was PERFECTION from the start. Like a Colt Govt Model or PeaceMaker. The quality on All my Smiths spanning a 40yr period are great.

Rugers are a different story. Ugly and feel like a brick . Their SRH & LCR win the pete/repete award for YOUGLY.
 
I am a former 442 owner. Nothing but manufacturing defects and shooting pain for me. Went back to the factory twice and I got rid of it.

Inconsistent quality is my #1 pet peeve. Revolvers seem especially prone to it.
 
I don't know anything about the new Smith & Wesson's. I don't even remember the last time I looked at a "new" one, but what surprises me is the number of people who post here and on other forums, who apparently buy a gun and never take it out of the box until they get it home. :confused:

I don't care what the display model looks like, I want to see the one I'm buying.
 
I want to see the one I'm buying

I am with you on that one amigo.

Buddy of mine picked up a 686 from McBride's. Never cracked the box. Showed it to me and the crane to frame fit was horrible. Went back the next day and they tried to tell him that it was normal.

A quick comparison and the fellow exchanged. AGAIN the buddy didn't crack the box. (you would think that he would learn)

Next one had the front sight leaning to the left a little. (I assume that the crush-fit barrel was askew)

When you buy a gun...even a new gun...look at the damned thing!
 
I let quality speak for itself no matter the purchase being made. New revolvers that need to be examined extensively for defects or having to look at three of the same model to find a "good one" is just plain silly. I own at this time 11 Smiths the newest is from 1967, that's not counting the ones I've owned in nearly 40 years of all manner of shooting.

I remember looking at 3 revolvers to find the best wood on the grips not to find one free from defect. Smiths quality has gone to hell and when consumers start demanding quality for price maybe it will change.. I have my doubts....for my money Ruger is so much a better value than any production Smith that the last 3 handguns I bought I didn't even bother to compare a Smith to them.

People can try to justify the "quality" or lack thereof in Smith revolvers nowadays but when I pick up a quality weapon I know it. I agree one should look at the weapon they are buying before bringing it home and then complain about it, if its not to your standards at the shop Leave It There! So remember this is MY experience with Smith quality, I speak for no one else here. This is just my .02 worth and I'm not trying to start a war of words with anyone.
 
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The company currently calling itself Smith & Wesson, is not your daddy's Smith & Wesson.


Who, is.. As far as their current line, the 22lr's made in the Maine facility have been a disaster. We had problems with them used in club activities. The S&W PPK's have had so many issues I doubt they have any value compared to older versions.

The 340PD have had so many issues with cylinder erosion that the use of 357 loads under 140 grains is impossible.

My biggest disappointment was when some dept. 659 's had the frames fail due to cracks. Their lifetime warranty was useless as they don't have replacement parts for the 2nd. & 3rd. Gen handguns in stock. So those handguns are paperweights now.

I've used nothing but S&W professionally for thirty years. Few problems during that time but they aren't the same handgun they were back then. But without profits, the company will be no longer.

Interestingly, I had a rather lengthly conversation with a friend after a recent match who worked for Colt in their late 70's and 80's. The stories about their quality control were eye opening.
 
Most all my Smiths are P@R ones. 30+yrs old. l own a couple new ones. 0ne with a lock. All are beautiful. The basic Smith hand ejector design was PERFECTION from the start. Like a Colt Govt Model or PeaceMaker. The quality on All my Smiths spanning a 40yr period are great.

Rugers are a different story. Ugly and feel like a brick . Their SRH & LCR win the pete/repete award for YOUGLY.

Ruger's double sided frame and crane lock up are GREAT improvements on your "perfection". I don't find 'em ugly, either. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, i guess, but when I'm shooting someone or something that's trying to kill me, last thing I would worry about is "beauty".

The link I have for my SP101 is imageigloo which is defunct, so this will have to do as an example of Ruger ugliness.


2j4sqxx.jpg
 
Some of the pictures posted of "new guns" put out by S&W are unbelievable. Crooked sights, misaligned barrels, cylinders that don't rotate, and gouges aplenty. The Harvard MBAs at S&W have obviously determined that it's cheaper to replace defective products than to have them undergo any reasonable QA.

Are they all bad? Not by a long shot. But they all cost enough that you'd think S&W could at least look at them one last time before they're shipped out to the consumer...
 
I'd like to give the factory the benefit of the doubt and think the problem could just as easily been caused by some fool snapping the cylinder open and closed "as seen on TV". Darned if I didn't catch one of the new store salesman doing just that! Cripes almighty! Send him packing to the hiking boot counter!

There is a commercial on my local cable channel of a pawn shop where the are showing off their guns and an employee does the spin the cylinder and flick it closed with your wrist maneuver. I couldn't believe that not only a gun store employee would do that, but that they would do it on their commercial. Way to scare off customers.
 
Unless they don't make a model in the category you want, I don't see why anyone would pay the money for a Smith over a Ruger these days. The supposedly superior fit, finish, and trigger justifying the large price difference over a Ruger is no longer there.
 
Rugers are a different story. Ugly and feel like a brick . Their SRH & LCR win the pete/repete award for YOUGLY.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Rugers do feel very substantial, but I like that. My k-frame feels like a delicate flower that would break if I dropped it, whereas my GP100 and SP101 feel sturdy and tough.
 
If not for current production S&W's I'd have never experienced the joy of the Ruger GP100 and SP101!! :)

Thanks Safety-Wesson!! :neener:
 
Also ran into issues with my new M&P9.
First and obvious, they didn't put all the grip inserts in with the gun. I got two mediums and a large, but I think I needed the small. Still not sure which one I need, but a call to them did get me one of them in the mail, which arrived about ten days later.
Second and also obvious, the sights aren't installed correctly. I can't get windage adjusted at 25 yards. This could be somewhat overlooked because I have a friend with a sight pusher who can slide the front sight a little more for me to correct this.
Worst, one of the pins that holds the rails into the frame keeps walking out. About every twenty shots I catch it walking out the right side of the frame. This is the real problem.

The combination of three things that should have been right the first time, added to the fact that my first M&P was a real loser, really doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence in S&W right now.
But they say a repair tag is on the way so we'll see.

In fairness, I have had to use Ruger's customer service. The result was impressive! I hope S&W's is as good.
 
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Im not a huge fan of the new S&W's, but alas, i have yet to see the old Smiths dry up. So my collection has 6-7 old classic smiths in great shape. New Smiths are not even on my radar.
 
A LGS I tend to do business with from time to time when there not way over priced does there own inspection of all weapons they sell before they go in the sell storage vaults and on display. The owner does set on a S&W retailers quality board and also sets on a board of some sort that tracks quality over all concerning the civilian weapon market.

They cull out about 1/8th of there purchases on average every year. And either return them to the distro or back to the manufacture's for replacement or repair before they are allowed in the for sale vaults or counter.

He has been at this game all his adult life and his family is right there with him. His wife is one of the sweetest women I've ever met. But a real no junk allowed type lady. :)

Of all the weapons I have handled at this LSG I've only ran across one that was a lemon under glass. And that was a Glock G20. They were so upset that this pistol got through that I was offered a discount on my next purchase. They never dicker or haggle over the price of a weapon. Priced as marked period. I used that discount on my PF-9 purchase. :)

I wish other LGS owners and retailers had such a culling program concerning there wares. A lot less junk would get into the end users hands.

His bottom line is they all put out junk from time to time and he will not knowingly pass that junk on to his customers. If he can help it. They also encourage there customers to fully inspect the weapon of choice prior to purchase and will allow dry fire if you are serious about purchasing the weapon if you have your own snap caps with you. They want you happy with your purchase within the scope of the given purchase.

This LSG has a direct link to the CEO, upper management, engineering, manufacturing and sales dept. at Smith. He is very picky with Smith and darn sure lets them know if the product is a pain in his bum. And I have personally seen some of this communication with Smith.

I have personally purchased four new Smiths in the last two years.

Sigma 9VE purchased through a FFL buddy. $200 out the door after rebate. Yep the trigger was crunchy and heavy. Trigger job fixed that. Of note it has the best barrel bore I've ever seen in a mass produced fire arm. A true beauty! I did break a extractor at the 5k round mark. Smith was more than eager to fix it even after I admitted to the trigger work and slide polish work and shooting several thousand rounds of max or above reloaded ammo through it. I declined since they would not just send or sell me a extractor. And purchased one at NUMRICH. No reason what so ever for me to purchase a M&P or Glock 9mm.

Next was a M&P .45. Late 2007 production for $500 OTD. Bought from the LGS mentioned above. Perfect NIB with a great trigger. But after some trigger time it turned into the fabled M&P .45 trigger. A quick trigger job fixed that. So easy a cave man can do it using the factory parts. No Apex needed.

I then picked up my 686P 4" from a LSG down the street. It had been on the gun show circuit and had some case wear and a few nicks from safety zip ties being cut off. $500 OTD. It was a perfect candidate for a mirror polish job, trigger work and such. :) Fantastic shooter!

Last but not least was the purchase of the wifes 60 Pro. Bought through a local FFL new in the box at a price to low to mention more as a gift from the FFL to my wife to welcome her to the shooting community. To pick the 60 Pro apart in finish, fit and function found it to have a few very small burrs as a result of the target crown and the side plate fit is not perfect, but well within reason. With a trigger job and a bit of Fluff and Buff It's a fantastic shooter. Even the wife can shoot full house mags out of it and not cry about hand pain like so many grown men do now days.

I will continue to purchase new S&W product and make it mine/ours from reputably sellers. And why not when I can buy them at Ruger prices, or below what the local market will bare. :)

S7300185.jpg
mpl630.jpg
686_P2.jpg
m60pro2.jpg

Buyer beware. :neener:
 
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