ar pistol law

The law defines a rifle as intended or made to be fired from the shoulder.

An AR pistol is a pistol because it is intended to be fired as a pistol, and is not fired from the shoulder.
The buffer tube is legal because it is part of the action, it is not a stock and not designed or intended to allow it to be fired from the shoulder.
If there is a recoil pad or something else for your shoulder on the buffer tube you have a stock, which makes it a short barreled rifle.

You should never be adding a stock or collapsible stock to the pistol. That would turn it into a short barreled rifle.
You could put a 16" barrel and butt stock on it, but the ATF has decided that if you ever go back to pistol format you are creating a pistol from a rifle which is an NFA item and would make that illegal.
(Which conflicts with how many interpret the Thompson case, but that is a complex issue)
To keep it simple ATF says if you make a handgun from a rifle you have made a SBR.
There is no restriction on making a long gun from a handgun.
That ATF interpretation makes it a one direction event, if you go from handgun to rifle it is illegal to go back to handgun by removing the stock and putting a barrel under 16" on it, or having under 26" overall length ever again.

So if you put a 16" barrel and stock on your AR pistol you then have an AR rifle, and cannot legally make it a pistol again. Sure you may get away with it, and nobody will likely ever know it was a rifle and so is illegal to once again be a pistol, but you will have committed a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.
If you want an AR pistol you have to leave it in pistol format and cannot switch back and forth between a legal pistol and legal rifle format according to the ATF.

Man, I would love to see these stupid laws changed someday. What a crock of <deleted> to have to worry about committing a felony by just changing the stock on a gun. What do these idiot politicians think that's going to accomplish? I had a similar conversation with a salesman at the Thompson Center booth at the NRA show. If I buy a single shot pistol barrel and put it on an action with a shoulder stock I've now committed a felony and can go to prison. Where do they come up with this stuff?

that he HAD to nark the guy out to the ATF

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The real question here is "Did the ATF then bust the guy?"
If they did, then I would assume the the dealer knew what he was talking about. If they didn't, then either he was wrong or the ATF'ers had something more important to do that day......

A standard buffer tube designed to accept a stock is legal to have on an AR pistol, so long as there is not a stock attached to it. The gunshop owner is trying to sell you a part that technically you don't need, but dedicated pistol buffer tubes are usually smoother and padded so that it's more comfortable than a rifle buffer tube to put your cheek against.

Plain jane buffer tube can get you slapped with an intent to build. ATF is fickle about stuff like this.

Rules for AR pistols:

1) Buy a virgin receiver. Can be made into either rifle or pistol as it will be in the 4473 that was most recently filed whether or not the firearm was a pistol or rifle first and virgins are clean.

2) Buy a carbine length pistol buffer for .223 pistols, they work better than the short ones for pistol caliber AR pistols

3) No vertical fore grips. Hand stops are OK and the ATF classifies the Magpul AFG as a hand stop, so if you want an attachment to assist in holding the weapon this you can have without creating an AOW.


These will keep you out of trouble until you either want to cough up the $200 and wait for paperwork or legislation removes the stupid NFA restrictions on barrel lengths.

The-King-Omega: There is what is legal, and what is legal and avoids potential hassle.

You can name a NFA trust anything you want, but it's gonna make it go faster by not going with anything odd. You can put "to defend against a zombie apocalypse" in 4i, but you're just gonna slow yours and others paperwork.

If legal, and I don't know that answer, it comes down to are you willing to put up with the potential hassle in exchange for something that isn't gonna be used.

WeedWacker said:

3) No vertical fore grips. Hand stops are OK and the ATF classifies the Magpul AFG as a hand stop, so if you want an attachment to assist in holding the weapon this you can have without creating an AOW.

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You have a BATFE letter for this? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I've seen this debated on NFA sites, but no letter from the BATFE that spells it out as legal.

Well crap, guess I missed the answer letter: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...NzdhMzUx&hl=en

You have a BATFE letter for this? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I've seen this debated on NFA sites, but no letter from the BATFE that spells it out as legal.

Well crap, guess I missed the answer letter

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LOL! I thought I was gonna go search the internet again for that pesky confirmation letter that said it was OK.

Most of the AR pistols I have seen at the local gun store had the original buttstock tube and even had a padding on it so you could even use it as a stock. They were selling these as pistols. No $200 NFA tax. Unless the guys at the gun store are a bunch of clueless buffoons that don't mind losing their FFL license then I would assume that it is legal to keep the original tube. Seems like most rifle turned pistols are readily convertible to a SBR, but still legal. I suppose the ATF isn't as concerned about the ease of illegal SBR conversions as they are with the full auto conversions.

The one at the store looked a lot like this one --> http://jsgunparts.com/store/images/full-k23p[1].jpg

I have a CA89 pistol and a MP5 stock will attach without any modification. The store clerk (a class 3 FFL) also pointed this out to me. Plus many common pistols such as the Beretta and 1911 have stocks you can buy online that will attach without any modification. I don't see how they could get you with constructive intent unless you were actually caught with the stock and the gun in your possession at the same time.

had a padding on it so you could even use it as a stock.

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Thus they have created an SBR as the buffer tube is designed to be shoulder mounted and I believe there IS a letter about that. arfcom has more info on this as they have a dedicated forum to the topic, but watch out for the tinfoil hatters and prepubescent commando wannabes.

see example on discussion for intent here:
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/A2-buffer-tube-pistol-t60209.html

As has been observed by many here the BATF can be more flip-floppy on some firearm issues than John Kerry in a presidential campaign speech and even more enthusiastic about NFA item control.

atf's definition of a pistol:
Pistol. A weapon originally designed,
made, and intended to fire a projectile
(bullet) from one or more barrels when
held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(
s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a
short stock designed to be gripped by one
hand and at an angle to and extending
below the line of the bore(s).

WeedWacker wrote:

had a padding on it so you could even use it as a stock.

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Thus they have created an SBR as the buffer tube is designed to be shoulder mounted and I believe there IS a letter about that. arfcom has more info on this as they have a dedicated forum to the topic, but watch out for the tinfoil hatters and prepubescent commando wannabes.

see example on discussion for intent here:
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/A2-...ol-t60209.html

As has been observed by many here the BATF can be more flip-floppy on some firearm issues than John Kerry in a presidential campaign speech and even more enthusiastic about NFA item control.

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-Wrong here. The padding sleeve down the length of the buffer tube is so that one may use it to gain cheekweld and more stable sighting. Almost always they are not shouldered as the bare carbine buffer tube is too short to shoulder. If someone was using a A1 or A2 buffer tube...
-The padding on the end was a letter question to ATF, asking if putting a cane pad on the end so it would not scratch the floor/safe when set down made it a stock. The response from ATF was that the cane tip did not turn the buffer tube into a stock by itself.

Wrong here. The padding sleeve down the length of the buffer tube is so that one may use it to gain cheekweld and more stable sighting.

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I was responding to the exact wording in the statement that it was intended to be fired from the shoulder as described. Don't go forgetting what was said and try to turn things around on me. If it has the cheek rest padding, that's OK. Any attempt to design something that can be mounted on the shoulder easily will most likely be seen by the ATF as an attempt to build an SBR, it's better to be all legal and not dance on the line.

No gun owner should do business with any seller who would call the ATF on someone for a violation of these ridiculous laws.

i think we can all agree weedwaker is one of these guys that knows little about the subject but thinks he knows it all. no evedence to back up what he is saying, just saying it trying to make everone believe it is true. i think he really belives he is right. so do all the other people that have givin me bogus info on the buttstock tube issue.

Quote:
it's better to be all legal and not dance on the line.
how do you know it is not legal? where is your proof? a few posts on a random internet blog sight like ar15 or even on here does not make a subject fact.....
Quote:
I believe there IS a letter about that.
Quote:
see example on discussion for intent here:
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/A2-...ol-t60209.html
i created this discustion to get away from the bologna and find REAL FACTS and im not trying to be rude or cruel to anyone but this is the same crap that people are handing out but know not if its true.... just because your best friend down at the gunshop told you it is or you overheard some guy at the crackerbarrel doesnt make it fact.

if it is true.... so be it. but i want to see it before i believe it. from a reputable sorce like atf / nfa

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I put a lot of thought and process into each AR build I make. That especially includes laws when I'm working with barrels shorter than 16 inches.

Since I live in the wonderfully mundane state of Washington I am not allowed the amenity of creating an SBR which, in my opinion which can and will differ from yours, should be the only way to go in an AR platform using shorter barrels. I have seen the letters in PDF scanned by FFL's and others who have written to the ATF or had letters sent to them by the ATF clarifying the status of the Magpul AFG specifically since that was the direction I wanted to go with my build. If I were not so convinced of the ATF's stance on the classification of the AFG as a hand stop (which does not transform a pistol into an AOW NFA item) I would not have put it on my pistol build.

ETA: If you want a letter as well you can write to the ATF requesting clarification. They will send you a letter stating what the interpretation of the law is to them and you can go with that if it makes you happy.

Dug up one of those pieces of evidence off of arfcom you so handily dismissed as a source.

From the thread on scans of letters from the ATF

Thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=525036

Document stating AFG is ok:

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id...TMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en

ETA: And the cane tip thing was for use in safe only, if you take it to the range like that and the ATF gets wind of it there may be an investigation and a mess you can avoid regardless of whether they decide it was legal to use like that or not.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=465457

oh and ETA::: I wouldnt contact the ATF on this subject EVER, or any firearm law of this kind, why you may ask???? because when you go asking the ATF such question they go thinking in there little communist heads "hey i thought we used enough scare tactics and had people spreading bogus info on this already where they wouldnt do it.... oh i guess we will just have to make it law..."

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It takes congress to make new laws. The ATF can modify their interpretations on the existing laws but they can't ban firearms because you asked them about one. If you need clarification on an existing law you have the option of getting the interpretation from the horses (or donkeys) mouth. And i have provided you with evidence but you choose not to see it as that. So until further notice, enjoy living in your self incorporated being of misanthropy.

Actually, you CAN add a VFG to an AR "other". If the weapon exceeds 26" overall length, has a barrel under 16", but/and is not readily concealable, you are good to go. It's sort of like a title I AOW. Franklin Armory makes a weapon like this. They have an ATF letter giving them the ok.