best .380 defense ammo
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azwizard
Member
I'm using buffalo bore 100 gr out of my Makarov, and they are potent. I wouldn't ant to be hit with one.
Quote this ... Quote that ... Quote something else 
From what I've read around and heard from others the Winchester T-Series are suppose to be a devastating round out of an LCP out to about 20 ft. if you can find them.
Stagger those with a FN round of some sort and that should do about as good as you can expect for any SD situation.
Not to clog your thought pattern but I've heard tell that even a BG being hit several times with anything from a 9mm up to a 45acp hasn't deterred them < sometimes
> from continuing to attack even a LEO.
So like we always hear ... placement-placement-placement ...
From what I've read around and heard from others the Winchester T-Series are suppose to be a devastating round out of an LCP out to about 20 ft. if you can find them.
Stagger those with a FN round of some sort and that should do about as good as you can expect for any SD situation.
Not to clog your thought pattern but I've heard tell that even a BG being hit several times with anything from a 9mm up to a 45acp hasn't deterred them < sometimes
> from continuing to attack even a LEO. So like we always hear ... placement-placement-placement ...
There has been some incredible quoting going on in this thread. I truly admire their work ethic, such diligence.
If more people had experience hunting and paid more attention to actual shooting stats, as opposed to opinions, there wouldn't be nearly as many stopping power/ammo choice related arguments.
I find the subject fascinating (no sarcasm implied).
Loosedhorse
member
Your response is non sequitur. If you had said that civilians have less need for tactics or for long guns, that would make at least be relevant to my comment--but I would still disagree.Manco said:
Your comment that "civilians" are less likely to get into shootouts argues, if anything, that all preparation for shootouts (tactics, caliber selection, or even going armed at all) are equally unneeded; it does not suggest we should favor any preparation over another.
And by the way, police (other than MPs and SP) are civilians; that includes the FBI.
I didn't mean tactics in general, but the sort of tactics that the FBI or other law enforcement agencies would use when attempting to apprehend criminals, which civilians generally would not attempt.
In contrast, the FBI's penetration standard specifically is relevant to everybody who wishes to maximize the effectiveness of their handguns, which in my opinion makes it the most broadly applicable thing that they've said in response to the Miami shootout.
Not at all--it just means that fewer people would choose to prepare for less likely events, which is evident just about every day here on this forum (e.g. the thread in the Revolvers section regarding whether one feels undergunned with a revolver). Relatively less public interest in preparing for relatively unlikely extended shootouts with heavily armed and highly determined criminals implies narrower applicability to civilians, that's all. The only major assumption that I made is that most people who own handguns for defensive purposes are interested in maximizing the lethality of their handguns.
Wrong again:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilian
Loosedhorse
member
So, I say "tactics", you "interpret" it to mean something I didn't say, and then delcare I'm wrong? Seems to be your tactic throughout this entire thread, doesn't it?
Yes, at all. Tactics are always important, even if you assess your risk as low. Good weapons plus bad tactics leads to getting shot, as the FBI showed in Miami (G-D bless them for their sacrifice.)
No, right again. Civilian means governed by civil law, not military law. I understand that some people (like you) use the term incorrectly, and therefore some dictionaries--not all--decide to include that incorrect meaning. But police and FBI are governed by civil law, not the UCMJ.
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And from my point of view, that's exactly what you've done at every turn.
I was speaking about any specific tactics that the FBI would recommend as part of their analysis of the Miami shootout, which is analogous to their specific recommendation for bullet penetration, saying that the latter is more broadly applicable to civilians (common definition) while the former is far more applicable to law enforcement. You apparently misunderstood, I clarified, and now you're twisting what I said around to mean that I dismissed the value of tactics in general, which is bogus.
Arguing semantics for things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand (as well as making a huge deal out of a parenthetical trifle above) shows that you're merely flailing to save face before an audience, namely the rest of this forum, that frankly does not care.
Loosedhorse
member
Psychologists call that projection!
So, now you're not only presuming to know what I meant better than I do, but also to know my motivations and what the rest of the forum members think.
Well, to sum up: you're wrong about everything you've said about me--you shoulda stuck to calibers. And since you've made this discussion (as was your goal?) no longer about ammo and recommendations, the game is not worth the candle.
The last word is yours--or can you perhaps resist?
Psychologists call that projection!
So, now you're not only presuming to know what I meant better than I do,
That's what you just did in your last post--insist that I was saying something other than what I was saying, and that you knew better.
There must be some reason you're still posting since you made none of your points regarding caliber--seems like a personal vendetta to me.
As for what others think of our debate, several of them made that pretty clear a few posts up, and in no positive terms.I tried but you kept making it personal.
Projecting now, are we?
Thanks, I'll take it, as it is well-deserved. Actually, it was you who sidetracked the discussion by focusing on inferences that I supposedly made about you that I did not, doing so before offering clarification, and rejecting every attempt I've made at clarification. It's hard enough to explain oneself even when others are not trying to make things more confusing than they are.
The absolute best 380 ammo i've used is Buffalo Bore. They have a few different weights of the non hollow point ammo. Any of their 380 ammo will
slap the smile off nearly anyone's face. I feel perfectly comfortable carrying
my p238 loaded with Buffalo Bore. I also like Corbon ammo. They seem to know what they are doing as well as Buffalo Bore. If you have never felt comfortable with a 380 cal pistol - shoot some Buffalo Bore. You will feel comfortable.
slap the smile off nearly anyone's face. I feel perfectly comfortable carrying
my p238 loaded with Buffalo Bore. I also like Corbon ammo. They seem to know what they are doing as well as Buffalo Bore. If you have never felt comfortable with a 380 cal pistol - shoot some Buffalo Bore. You will feel comfortable.
My new load of choice is the swampfox XTP load.
Its an XTP; so if it does expand it does so in a controlled fashion to still maintain penetration, If it doesn't expand, oh well...its essentially an FMJ which are still deadly and many will argue are actually better for a mousegun.
Its an XTP; so if it does expand it does so in a controlled fashion to still maintain penetration, If it doesn't expand, oh well...its essentially an FMJ which are still deadly and many will argue are actually better for a mousegun.
jae011
Member
Not trying to defend the 380 or discredit it but does anyone know of an actual situation where someone was armed with the 380 and it failed to stop the threat?
hammerclaw56
Member
Corbon 90 jhp
My wife and I both have BG 380's and they are loaded with cor-bon 90 grn JHP, at 1050 fps coming out of a bodyguard it might not take out an elephant but I for one don't want to be on the receiving end.:
My wife and I both have BG 380's and they are loaded with cor-bon 90 grn JHP, at 1050 fps coming out of a bodyguard it might not take out an elephant but I for one don't want to be on the receiving end.:
Nicky Santoro
Member
I agree on the Corbon 90s. The first three are Corbons followed by three Buffalo Bore hard cast.
ssyoumans
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In a small caliber, I want as much energy departed into the subject as possible. Granted, shot placement, bullet design and penetration are key...
I was at the range yesterday to see what the various 380's will do out of a Sig P238 (short barrel, data would apply to Kel-Tec P3AT & Ruger LCP)... so much data is always from longer barreled 380s (Bersa Thunder, etc).
Anyhow, from my Sig P238, 90 degrees temp, 10 feet from the muzzle..
Buffalo Bore 90gr +P JHP: 1172 fps, 275 ft-lbs
Corbon 90gr +P JHP: 1044 fps, 218 ft-lbs
Speer Gold dot 90gr JHP: 1002 fps, 200 ft-lbs
Hornady 90gr Critical Defense: 916fps, 168 ft-lbs
I meant to test some PDX, but I forgot them somehow.
Anyhow, my take in this caliber, give me the most velocity and energy, for more reliable expansion and assoicated effects. For me, the Buffalo Bore 90gr +P is the clear winner. FYI, the recoil is noticably sharper than the rest. 26% more energy to dump.
FYI: Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP +P out of my 2" Taurus 38 85 was zipping along at 979 fps, for 337 ft-lbs. Tough to beat that.. It uses a super soft 8bhn lead bullet.
I was at the range yesterday to see what the various 380's will do out of a Sig P238 (short barrel, data would apply to Kel-Tec P3AT & Ruger LCP)... so much data is always from longer barreled 380s (Bersa Thunder, etc).
Anyhow, from my Sig P238, 90 degrees temp, 10 feet from the muzzle..
Buffalo Bore 90gr +P JHP: 1172 fps, 275 ft-lbs
Corbon 90gr +P JHP: 1044 fps, 218 ft-lbs
Speer Gold dot 90gr JHP: 1002 fps, 200 ft-lbs
Hornady 90gr Critical Defense: 916fps, 168 ft-lbs
I meant to test some PDX, but I forgot them somehow.
Anyhow, my take in this caliber, give me the most velocity and energy, for more reliable expansion and assoicated effects. For me, the Buffalo Bore 90gr +P is the clear winner. FYI, the recoil is noticably sharper than the rest. 26% more energy to dump.
FYI: Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP +P out of my 2" Taurus 38 85 was zipping along at 979 fps, for 337 ft-lbs. Tough to beat that.. It uses a super soft 8bhn lead bullet.
Ever wonder why the results vary so much from one ammo test to another? Ever wonder why people trust a federal agency's assessment on one subject and distrust the same federal agency in other respects? Me too.
I'm no expert on much of anything but I have read enough to know that bullets react in ways that cannot be predicted with any high degree of accuracy. There is no point in dwelling on what might happen because anything can happen. The best you can do is pick an ammunition that functions well in your gun, practice shooting accurately and pray you never have to perform a real world test of the ammo or yourself.
I'm no expert on much of anything but I have read enough to know that bullets react in ways that cannot be predicted with any high degree of accuracy. There is no point in dwelling on what might happen because anything can happen. The best you can do is pick an ammunition that functions well in your gun, practice shooting accurately and pray you never have to perform a real world test of the ammo or yourself.
Yahtzee4U
Member
Sorry to quote some more but I just wanted to bring something to everyone's attention. I was reading this thread (what a heated debate!), and noticed this interesting link. I appreciate the effort that this man put into real world testing with pork slabs to mimic human chests, but if anyone looked at the results you'll notice that many of these so-called great HP's did not expand at all. There is a reason for that. His test was against meat that was bled already, and not against a body that is like a water sac. A JHP is designed to expand after it "slaps" into a real body that has liquid surrounding our organs, not after hitting spongy meat.
Back to the topic at hand....This may be a dumb question, but does anyone make a jacketed soft point for .380? That seems like it would be a good compromise for penetration, and yet more expansion that just a full metal jacket. I am new to the .380 arena after just purchasing an LCP, and I am not sure which ammo to go with. I am generally a Corbon fan, expensive though.
I have had first hand problems with these. About a year and some change ago I tried some 40 S&Ws though my Glock 27. Two hard primer strikes on two rounds out of eight and they did not touch off. Not good odds. I fired the two boxes off including those two rounds though my XD. I had my first failures to return fully to battery with those rounds as well.
As far as ammunition, folks have their favorites but much of the testing I have seen is that FMJ seems to offer the best total penetration. I think Gun Tests did some on the more professional level?
Still the penetration was not great. This could be one of those more ambiguous rounds however where it may not matter. From what it appears you would not have to worry about OVER penetration as much as under penetration.
Is this going to be your general always carry item or a summer carry item? Summers may not be a huge issue as there are not a lot of clothing worn in those months to penetrate though properly, and a good solid hollow point would work fine. Winter months with thick jackets and the sort you may want to opt for a FMJ if that is your year round carry item.
Though I do hear a lot of great things about the pistol itself. I would go in that caliber with what shoots the best for you.
Critical Defense works like a SP, the rubber inside of the HP makes sure that it doesn't clog no matter what. It only expands to .45 - .5 and penetrates well. It won't make a big pretty mushroom like the PDX1 but due to the limits of a short barrel 380 it might make the best four season choice.
Whoa, Buffalo Bore loads the Barnes 80 gr at 1275 fps (longer barrel).
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=29
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=29
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