Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

Your "corrections" ring hollow when I clearly show in my video how the index finger can in fact fall straight to the trigger when the tip of the finger is used.

Click to expand...

The Serpa admittedly may be predisposed to this inherently dangerous position, but I think the condition is significantly worsened with the 1911.

In practice, I always draw my P226 from my Serpa with the my trigger finger laying flat against the side. After reading this thread, I tried to see if curling my finger would ever cause my finger to land in the trigger guard and it never did. I found my finger would always firmly rest on the frame. Just looking at the two guns the P226 has a lot more frame space above the trigger than the 1911... just food for thought.

I'd think twice about carrying a 1911 in one of these but honestly I don't feel too concerned with my personal set up.

Page 5
Careless will get you hurt, quit blaming the gear for operator malfunction that results in injury.
Serpa Holsters are .mil issue.
I want to see a report of how many self induced injuries are incurred by military personal that are specifically and directly attributed to their holster,,,
No?

Ok, let me point out what I have posted in various threads concerning Serpa holsters.
I use Serpa holsters with Double action pistols and with Glock handguns.

I don't use Serpa holsters with 1911 pistols.

Why?

Because of the way the brain processes information and transmits the signals to the limbs.

This is the same reason I don't use thumbbreak holsters with 1911 pistols and rely on friction retention holsters for my guns.

Keep your finger OFF the trigger and your thumb OFF the safety lever until the weapon is pointed downrange and I guarantee you will not shoot yourself unless the weapon is defective.
If the holster wipes the safety or presses against the trigger, or worse, both, STOP using that holster and move on to another design.

If I do some digging, I can come up with a you-tube video of a cop who shot himself with a Glock carried in a famous brand of leather IWB holster while sitting in a car.
Bear this in mind, the holster was well worn and no longer performed as originally designed.

I have no desire to slander that manufacturer or his product because of one incident.
Sheet happens, let it go.

I had a Serpa, and it performed great for me, however....I didn't train shooting from the ground. Soon as I learned of the lock issues, and alls it takes is to fall in the snow to jam it, I changed my mind about it. I now only use kydex holsters that use friction to retain the gun, no locking devices. Train all you want, but if you dont include diving for cover in the dirt or snow, you may not see all the serpas design flaws.
Be safe and train hard!

I'm carrying my Glock 23 in a Serpa right now. It's a very safe holster. But nothing is completely idiot proof.

Made me cringe

The first time I saw a SERPA holster and realized where your trigger finger was going to be, it startled me.

I am not suprised that someone had an A/D.

If you like the holster and it does not worry you that you could hurt, maim or kill yourself, so be it, but that does not change the fact that the holster increases the rist of an A/D.

I would not use a SERPA, I think it is just an unsafe design.
Any holster that puts your finger in a firing configuration sounds like a bad idea to me.

Some of you with long memory's may remember that holsters used to leave the trigger area open. My agency forbide carrying them because of the danger of an A/D.

Jim

Some of you with long memory's may remember that holsters used to leave the trigger area open. My agency forbide carrying them because of the danger of an A/D.

Click to expand...

Those holsters never looked right to me and I wouldn't want one. You don't put your finger in the trigger guard till you're on target.

^ Not talking about revolver holsters are ya? They still make 'em like this. The holster is form fitted to the cylinder and blocks it from turning. You can't pull the trigger or even cock the hammer while the gun is in the holster.

I do believe that leather holsters you could in fact, rotate the cylinder while holstered.

I have one just like this. Leather. Open trigger. No, you can't cock the hammer or pull the trigger.

The hand of a revolver is working against a lot of leverage. It only works because there's normally so little resistance. It doesn't take much resistance on the cylinder to effectively block the gun from firing. During a struggle, a hand grasping the cylinder will also easily prevent the gun from firing. Heck, if you hold a DA revolver wrong and your support finger gets wedged in between the cylinder and frame, it'll prevent the gun from firing.

Mine is form fitted, right into the fluting. But even without that, it could still be made very effective.

I recall the "quick draw guy" in the viral You Tube vid - the one making a vid for his uncle Tony - talking about the safety benefit of the standard cowboy holster, because it prevents the hammer from being cocked until the gun is drawn. Compared to the quickdraw type which used a steel insert to allow the cylinder to rotate, freely.

If you can't even cock the hammer, imagine how hard it would be to pull the trigger. Believe me, I've tried. I wouldn't be using a holster like this without testing it, first. Heck, I wouldn't have even thought to buy one, but I received it as a gift. Now I know why they can make 'em like this.

Edit: and now I have to eat my words. LOL. I tested it before, but I guess the holster loosened up since then. It certainly is possible to fire the gun in my particular holster with enough force! At least it still has the thumbstrap over the hammer!

"all it takes is to fall in snow to jam it."
When the initial fault concerns are proven groundless even more stupid ones crop up to take the place.

If you fall into enough snow to jam a mechanism on an open top/open bottom holster, imagine what has happened to the handgun being carried.

ALL the real or imagined faults with this holster design involve human operator error, every one.

You can sometimes fix stupid but you can't idiot proof everything.

"all it takes is to fall in snow to jam it."
When the initial fault concerns are proven groundless even more stupid ones crop up to take the place.

If you fall into enough snow to jam a mechanism on an open top/open bottom holster, imagine what has happened to the handgun being carried.

ALL the real or imagined faults with this holster design involve human operator error, every one.

You can sometimes fix stupid but you can't idiot proof everything.

Click to expand...

Defend Serpa if you want, thats your choice, but I'm not taking any chance of my gun, locking in a Serpa! I dont care what you do to my Ntac holster, the guns coming out when I need it, packed in snow or mud, it don't matter. You can't forsee what situation you'll be in when you need to draw, and if I fall in the snow before I draw, its nice to know my weapon will come out.
And you can't fix stupid

"Serpa Holsters are .mil issue."

When I was overseas nobody in our infantry battalion was issued Serpas. I know for a fact that the issue was crappy nylon holsters. Additionally, every one of the Serpa holsters were bought by individuals not buy our units.

Onmilo said:

"all it takes is to fall in snow to jam it."
When the initial fault concerns are proven groundless even more stupid ones crop up to take the place.

If you fall into enough snow to jam a mechanism on an open top/open bottom holster, imagine what has happened to the handgun being carried.

ALL the real or imagined faults with this holster design involve human operator error, every one.

You can sometimes fix stupid but you can't idiot proof everything.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but your defense of Serpa against humans only reinforces the point of this thread. No one is saying Serpas are the suckiest bunch of sucks who ever sucked in the world of holsters, but there are simple elements of the holster that don't protect against the simplest of human errors... like falling down on your gear in snow or sand or mud.

The video posted re: snow was quite clear and it's not like he even applied the full force of a fall onto the rig. It failed to release the weapon more than once, and that needs to be considered.

Choosing the right clothing that protects your carry handgun in inclimate weather goes a long was to preventing debris from getting to the handgun or the lock mechanism.
I wear coverall in cold, snowy weather and have my handgun belted inside the coveralls with the lining of the draw pocket removed.
I use Serpa holsters in this manner and still haven't been able to shoot myself nor jam the mechanism of the holster or the gun even when lying in snow while hunting coyote.

A single layer of 100 mph tape over the bottom of the holster and covering the lock mechanism will also prevent any operator induced issues from becoming an issue and will not prevent the mechanism from operating if the holster is open carried in harsh conditions.

I also use a couple of the "crappy" Bianchi nylon flap holsters when open carrying in inclimate weather.
Another darned good holster if you know how to use one correctly.

As I said, you CAN fix stupid, everyone is born naked and stupid, you CAN'T idiot proof everything or we would all be walking around in padded hamster balls.

If I had to open carry a handgun for a living in a hostile environment while rolling around in the muck, I would opt for something simpler and more foolproof. Aside from possibly jamming, I also wouldn't want the button to accidentally get pressed.

But I also wouldn't use a paddle holster to begin with. How many of us own a paddle holster? A lot. How many would use that for military/police duty?

The Serpa remains my favorite range holster. For how I use it, the Serpa is one of the best. Even if they don't cut it for the Green Berets, I'm sure Serpa's will continue to sell like hot cakes in the civilian market. I put mine on at the range. Take it off when I go home. No rolling in the snow required.

Tapping out.....Been educational to say the least!

As long as we are drifting, I have been in the education business for over 30 years. Ignorance can be fixed. Stupid can't be fixed.

"This is not something I blame on the holster. I blame it purely on me."
-Tex Grebner

While you guys are trying to fix ignorant and stupid, maybe you should send Tex a message. While you're at it, you left out the design fault of thumbstraps and shirttails causing reholstering ND's. We should all stop stop using shirts, peeps.

Also, you guys didn't point out the design flaw of a thumbreak being the same place as a manual safety. I suppose the only suitable form of positive retention would be a flap holster tied down with a bow - while carrying a knife just in case it gets knotted, of course. Now that would be foolpr... darn it. We can't expect all those ignorant and stupid gun owners to know how to tie a bow, now can we.

As some obscure actor in some obscure movie said : "You've got to be slow...In a hurry.". I have a Serpa holster and I have learned to never be in a hurry getting my pistol out of it. And that holds true for other holsters which "lock" your pistol down for safe carry.

You just have to repeat the same motion over and over and over at whatever speed you can so you don't make mistakes. If you draw faster than your alacrity will allow - you may not shoot yourself, but you may not get your gun out of your holster either.

Tex is lucky he didn't fracture one of the bones in his leg. It's kind of a silly event because he's ok. The great thing is that he had the stones to put the video on youtube so the rest of us could be reminded to practice, practice, practice (even if you're not going to Carnegie Hall).

I think part of the problem is having different gun systems and different holster systems, ie SA/DA, DOA, Cond 1 cock and lock SA. Pick one system that you are comfortable with , train with it exclusivley, so that you do not have confusion at a critical time and make a mistake like he did. To me, that is the heart of this problem, not the holster, not the gun, not necessarily the shooter, but the confusion caused by using different systems.

Keep it simple!!! Use one system!

After all of these pages I think you nailed it with:

I have a Serpa holster and I have learned to never be in a hurry getting my pistol out of it.

Click to expand...

I personally ditched the Serpa because they are slow and don't meet my need for speed.

One might consider some of the trainers who are having questions about the Serpa put their students against the clock and push them hard to extend them beyond their limits. In cases like those, the students would be served far better with something without a retention device at all.

My Agency issues Serpa 3's and I actually draw faster out of it than the previously Bianchis. We have close to a thousand people using these things in my local area and we qualify 4 times a year. To date, I have never personally witnessed or even heard of an accidental discharge due to this holster. If you take a second to examine the design and actually practice using it, you will realize that the most efficient draws involve keeping the thumb and trigger finger 100% straight. When you draw like this, the gun naturally comes out of the holster with your finger straight along the trigger guard (which is where it is supposed to be.) Holsters which require you to bend finger joints are inherently slower in my experience. If your trigger finger is bent trying to "find" the Serpa button, you are wrong and also causing your draws to be slower. I know for a fact that I can draw from this holster as fast as I can with a strapless friction style design. Secondly, if you do more than sit in a car for a day's work you will appreciate the Serpa's retention capabilities. When facing a person carrying a gun in a Serpa Holster, it is nearly impossible to get the gun off of the person's body without using two hands and having knowledge of how the device operates. Say what you will about weapon retention being the responsibility of the carrier, but I have seen numerous weapons fall out of other holster designs during foot chases and physical altercations. I'm not saying its the absolute best holster for all carrying purposes, but to call it inherently dangerous doesn't reflect my experience of using one every single day for the last 2 years.