Alan Gura Begins Attack on "May-Issue" Carry Laws

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Bushmaster1313:
"i think you are wrong about ny law. You do not need a ccw"

unfortunatley he has it 100% correct, you can not even LOOK at a handgun in the gunstore without your carry permit.

now if you actually have $500 to spend, and 6-8 months to wait, and 4 in county character references, and time to sit infront of a judge to explain yourself for applying for a permit, and never had 1 outstanding parking ticket, congradulations to you, you just might be approved. if that does happen, then your free to go pay for your pistol and have it sit at the gunstore untill the pd have time to add it to your phisical permit, at which point you can now posess (not carry anywhere, except AT the range) a handgun in NY!!
 
azmjs said:
I think quoting the whole context of what I wrote would have addressed your objection, don't you?
Well, I did consider your "whole context," and no, it does not address my objection in the least. Perhaps you're being obtuse?

NYC (for example) not only greatly and arbitrarily restricts CCW, it similarly bars OC. I don't believe it will be possible for SCOTUS to decide about carry (as in right to keep and BEAR arms) with addressing what powers the state has (after MacDonald and Heller) to restrict a decided, fundamental, enumerated, incorporated, individual right. That would include both CC and OC.

But I could be wrong. We are both, of course, trying to predict the future.
you may also have misunderstood the Brown v EMA case and the court's decision. You've sort of got it backwards, actually.

The court decided that video games were protected speech under the first Amendment and declined to consider whether or not they were "harmful to children" or any other similar consideration or consensus.
In contrast, here there is no uncertainty: you are completely wrong. SCOTUS said that "protected" speech that is harmful to children (like pornography) is vulnerable to a strict strutiny restriction, and is not protected for sale to children; however, since there was no consensus that violent video games were harmful to kids, such games could therefore be considered protected speech for the purposes of such sale.
SCOTUS said:
Because the Act imposes a restriction on the content of protected speech, it is invalid unless California can demonstrate that it passes strict scrutiny—that is, unless it is justified by a compelling government interest and is narrowly drawn to serve that interest. R. A. V., 505 U. S., at 395. The State must specifically identify an “actual problem” in need of solving, Playboy, 529 U. S., at 822–823, and the curtailment of free speech must be actually necessary to the solution, see R. A. V., supra, at 395. That is a demanding standard. “It is rare that a regulation restrict-ing speech because of its content will ever be permissible.” Playboy, supra, at 818.

California cannot meet that standard.

Scalia goes on for about 2 pages discussing the evidence of harm to children, and judging it inadequate, indicating the Court consisdered and discussed that evidence at length and in detail. It is because the evidence was found wanting that the strict scutiny analysis of the restriction failed.

Really quite a blunder, there, on your part, az! Good thing I was here to keep you from (unintentionally, I'm sure) misleading others. :)

(Scalia's opiinion, IMHO, is really quite amusing where he successfully discredits some of the "studies" purporting harm.)

To re-iterate: this is important because it is perhaps the first time that "scientific concensus" was a required element of a strict scrutiny analysis. Up until then, a bare theory (like the unsupported theory that all gun laws increase public safety) seems to have been adequate to establish that the law in question was "actually necessary" to achieve the compelling government interest.
 
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Bushmaster1313:
>"i think you are wrong about ny law. You do not need a ccw"
>unfortunatley he has it 100% correct, you can not even LOOK at a handgun >in the gunstore without your carry permit.

now if you actually have $500 to spend, and 6-8 months to wait, and 4 in county character references, and time to sit infront of a judge to explain yourself for applying for a permit, and never had 1 outstanding parking ticket, congradulations to you, you just might be approved. if that does happen, then your free to go pay for your pistol and have it sit at the gunstore untill the pd have time to add it to your phisical permit, at which point you can now posess (not carry anywhere, except AT the range) a handgun in NY!!


"i think you are wrong about ny law. You do not need a ccw"

unfortunatley he has it 100% correct, you can not even LOOK at a handgun in the gunstore without your carry permit.

********************************************************

And you have to buy the gun first, because its make, model and serial# are part of the application. This puts the applicant in the position of having to buy a handgun and simply trust that it feels, handles and shoots in a manner that is pleasing and functional, unless an existing permit holder breaks the law and lets them try out their gun, the gun store breaks the law by allowing handling, or they go out of state.

I don't remember the application costing $500 (Westchester Cty) - probably 150 or so. Parking and moving violations aren't an issue, and even arrests aren't an issue if you submit "disposition" letters with the application. I also didn't have to justify the permit in front of a judge - I simply dropped off the paperwork and waited.

And yes, it's quite true unfortunately that you have to have your permit "amended" every time you buy an additional handgun. It's annoying to pay hundreds of dollars for something, and wait weeks to get to use it.

As I understand it, my permit allows carry to and from the range, either locked in a box or concealed about my person. If I'm caught carrying 'off hours', I've been told one of two things can happen - the cop may say, "hey, you have a valid permit don't do this again" or "I'm taking custody of your firearm and permit." and then I'd have to go in front of a "revocation hearing" which is an administrative procedure which, at worst, involves losing the permit and the handguns. No criminal sanction.

I have no idea how this upcoming case affects possession/carry in NYC. There's a decent indoor range at the southern tip of my county. Any Westchester resident that shoots there is one missed or wrong turn away from accidentally going into the Bronx, which is a problem because NYS permits are *invalid* anywhere in the city. They're now technically guilty of a misdemeanor possession charge.

I wish Mr. Gura the very best with this case - I met him two days ago and he's a very nice fellow and genuinely cares about our rights.
 
The fact that it doesn't make a distinction is what dooms the prospects of a "right to concealed carry." Being able to carry arms openly unambiguously fulfills the right to keep and bear arms protected by the second amendment, whether or not you can conceal them is extraneous and unrelated to the second amendment.

Explain how this is so. You did not address my question. Why would open carry be protected but concealed carry not? You are reading your own interpretation into the language of the 2A. Like I said, it says "keep and bear," not "keep and bear openly."

I don't see where the framers intended the right to pertain to only open carry. You've offered no evidence, merely an opinion.

Did the Americans who lived in the Northeast in 1791 not have the right to carry under their coats during the harsh winter months?
 
Bushmaster1313:
"i think you are wrong about ny law. You do not need a ccw"

unfortunatley he has it 100% correct, you can not even LOOK at a handgun in the gunstore without your carry permit.

now if you actually have $500 to spend, and 6-8 months to wait, and 4 in county character references, and time to sit infront of a judge to explain yourself for applying for a permit, and never had 1 outstanding parking ticket, congradulations to you, you just might be approved. if that does happen, then your free to go pay for your pistol and have it sit at the gunstore untill the pd have time to add it to your phisical permit, at which point you can now posess (not carry anywhere, except AT the range) a handgun in NY!!
The NY pistol permit process is laborious but it seems to be often exaggerated as well. It is true that each handgun has to be specifically listed on your permit, in order to take possession. The length of time it takes depends on your particular judge. I have never had to wait more than a few days to add a new handgun. It is true that NY is a "may issue" state, however most people outside of NYC seem to be able to obtain their permit, albeit with restrictions. It is true that most permits seem to be issued with target, and hunting restrictions, however many people are able to get unrestricted permits, or have the restrictions removed after a period of time. Again, it depends on your particular judge. The pistol permit costs around $100 and does not expire. I think mine took 3 or 4 months.

It is also true that NY has very few restrictions for where one can carry. Churches, bars, restaurants, are all ok, and I've never seen a business posted. It's just not on anyone's radar.

I'm not suggesting that this is how things should be, but it seems to be better here than NJ, IL, and CA, for instance.
 
Explain how this is so. You did not address my question. Why would open carry be protected but concealed carry not? You are reading your own interpretation into the language of the 2A. Like I said, it says "keep and bear," not "keep and bear openly."

I don't see where the framers intended the right to pertain to only open carry. You've offered no evidence, merely an opinion.

Did the Americans who lived in the Northeast in 1791 not have the right to carry under their coats during the harsh winter months?

It doesn't matter whether the "framers intended the right to pertain only to open carry," the second amendment isn't a license to do anything you want with a firearm, but rather a guarantee that you not be banned from keeping and bearing arms.

If a jurisdiction permitted open carry but not concealed carry, it would not be violating the second amendment because it would not be outlawing the carry of weapons.

In order to sue on second amendment grounds, a person would have to complain that by outlawing concealed carry, the state or city or whatever was preventing him from keeping and bearing arms. The obvious rejoinder is that his complaint isn't true, because the state allows him to openly carry his weapons.

The fact that he might prefer to carry concealed doesn't necessarily carry any weight.

An example of unconstitutional vis-a-vis the 2A carry restrictions would be a state or city that outlawed both open and concealed carry.
 
If a jurisdiction permitted open carry but not concealed carry, it would not be violating the second amendment because it would not be outlawing the carry of weapons.

In order to sue on second amendment grounds, a person would have to complain that by outlawing concealed carry, the state or city or whatever was preventing him from keeping and bearing arms. The obvious rejoinder is that his complaint isn't true, because the state allows him to openly carry his weapons.

I fully understand. In fact, I’ve even stated that myself here, right below one of your posts:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7521835&postcount=14

But choosing one or the other is not what you previously said. In your earlier posts, you stated that concealed carry was not protected by the 2A, only open carry.

It's just as likely that the court will never hear or decide gainfully on a CCW case because there is no special virtue to concealment protected by the second amendment.

All states may be required against their "states rights" to permit 'open carry,' but nothing in the second amendment protects a right to carry a concealed weapon.

This is not entirely accurate, because it would work in the reverse too. It would be no different to force all states to permit concealed carry, and allow them to prohibit open carry. Each method, open/concealed, is entitled to full 2A protection, just not necessarily simultaneously in the same jurisdiction.

At least, that is what the SCOTUS is likely to hold.
 
Yes NYS is not the friendliest place to get a permit, but I also agree that once you have a permit it is arguably a very friendly place to carry. I can't think of any restrictions beyond the usual courthouses and gov buildings. State parks maybe....?

The worst thing about NYS is the completely arbitrary nature of the process, and the huge variation from county to county. MY permit was issued in 6 weeks start to finish, unrestricted (full carry) and the deputy that did the investigation couldn't have been more pro carry if he tried. (even giving shooting pointers)

Two counties over it takes at least 6 months and a full carry is almost NEVER issued.

The comment of being under the radar is very true, most people that don't carry, don't know that anyone can carry. It's a strange state.
 
The comment of being under the radar is very true, most people that don't carry, don't know that anyone can carry. It's a strange state.

My uncle (extremely anti) has lived in California since about 1979. He didn't know you could carry openly and unloaded in California until this past January when I informed him :)
 
The thing about second amendment rights is they are rights, held by all citizens even folks you don't want to have the right. And that's what makes the right so scary to some in power, and what makes this right so powerful.

It's stuff like this that makes me happy on the inside.

As for on topic talk though, I don't even pretend to understand the legal goings in and out of this, but as someone earlier pointed out the basis for half of NY's law (and probably most other gun control laws) is the link between criminals carrying guns and law abiding people carrying guns. that is probably the most critical chain in this entire argument and I am frankly surprised that no smart lawyers, legislators and the like have seen this fallacy.

I don't believe every politician, legislator and sheriff who opposes the rights of the citizens to carry weapons is a bad person, encourages their wife to have an abortion instead of using birth control while hating America, apple pie and the sacred .45 cartridge ... but I am legitimately wondering where this gross oversight in logic comes from at times. You would think in any court this would be pointed out rather quick, but for some reason it is not ...
 
I live right over the border of NY (in Pa) and can't even transport my legally owned pistol to a gunsmith in NY without risking arrest, nor can I transport my legally owned handguns to the NY range/gun club just over the border to shoot it.
 
It doesn't matter whether the "framers intended the right to pertain only to open carry," the second amendment isn't a license to do anything you want with a firearm, but rather a guarantee that you not be banned from keeping and bearing arms.

Neither does it place any restrictions on the bearing of arms. It states that we have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't specify how we may or may not carry them. To have done so would make the right more like a privilege. No? Is the phrase "Shall not be infringed" not clear enough?

The fact that he might prefer to carry concealed doesn't necessarily carry any weight.

Nor does the fact that he may prefer to carry openly...which is also prohibited in many jurisdictions...which is a de facto infringement no matter how you cut it.

I'm mildly amused at what is quite frankly an arrogant notion that seems to be prevalent among our politicians...that nobody ever dared be so uppity to carry a gun before the states decided to grant permission via Shall Issue carry permits. If "they" had a clue as to how many men and women have been going about their daily snoop and poop with a concealed pistol or revolver on their persons...for years...it'd give'em a case of the vapors. I know a couple of old guys in their 80s who have carried every day of their lives since they were very young men. They tell me that the practice was...and is...quite common among their peer group.
 
I believe what makes Alabama a "may issue" state is that each county sheriff can establish local criteria for CCW issue, rather than one overriding state standard, but must honor CCW's from other counties (or reciprocal states). This is most evident in the cost for renewal. In Jefferson County, it's $7.50, whereas in neighboring Shelby Co., it's around $20. In fact, there was a minor insurrection in JeffCo when Hale tried to raise the renewal cost!:p
When I moved to Birmingham from Montgomery Co., AL back in '92, I had to go through the whole JeffCo application process, even though I had a current Montgomery Co. CCW. I just figured it was what I had to do.
 
Yes NYS is not the friendliest place to get a permit, but I also agree that once you have a permit it is arguably a very friendly place to carry. I can't think of any restrictions beyond the usual courthouses and gov buildings. State parks maybe....?

Actually, not even that. You can't carry into courthouses and government buildings that you are specifically told not to carry in (usually by a man with a metal detector at the door) and yes, that will be most government buildings. But theoretically, if that is not the case, and there are no local ordinances to the contrary, you can carry in a courthouse. I know quite a few villages in my area where they don't bother with anything like that.

Another interesting thing about local ordinances: if one county prohibits carrying firearms in certain places (e.g. churches), but your permit is from a different county that does not, you don't have to obey the ordinance. You DO risk getting your permit getting taken away if you're caught (the LE in the one county will notify your issuing county of what happened, and your permit can be revoked at any time and solely at the discretion of the issuing officer), but you have not, technically, committed any crime and cannot be charged with anything.

NYS is a strange place.

And others have responded for me, but yes: you technically cannot so much as handle a handgun in a store if it isn't registered to you. You couldn't even ask a friend if you could try the trigger on their 1911 to see what it feels like. This only applies if you're over 21 (under 21, and you're good to go, strangely enough).

The rule is widely ignored in practice
 
I fully understand. In fact, I’ve even stated that myself here, right below one of your posts:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7521835&postcount=14

But choosing one or the other is not what you previously said. In your earlier posts, you stated that concealed carry was not protected by the 2A, only open carry.



This is not entirely accurate, because it would work in the reverse too. It would be no different to force all states to permit concealed carry, and allow them to prohibit open carry. Each method, open/concealed, is entitled to full 2A protection, just not necessarily simultaneously in the same jurisdiction.

At least, that is what the SCOTUS is likely to hold.

I don't think we really disagree.

My point is not that the 2A offers no protection or justification at all for concealed carry, just that at the end of the day, there are obvious scenarios where a person could enjoy his 2A protected rights in full, but not be able to carry concealed.

Specifically, allowing open carry but prohibiting concealed carry.
 
Neither does it place any restrictions on the bearing of arms. It states that we have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't specify how we may or may not carry them. To have done so would make the right more like a privilege. No? Is the phrase "Shall not be infringed" not clear enough?



Nor does the fact that he may prefer to carry openly...which is also prohibited in many jurisdictions...which is a de facto infringement no matter how you cut it.

I'm mildly amused at what is quite frankly an arrogant notion that seems to be prevalent among our politicians...that nobody ever dared be so uppity to carry a gun before the states decided to grant permission via Shall Issue carry permits. If "they" had a clue as to how many men and women have been going about their daily snoop and poop with a concealed pistol or revolver on their persons...for years...it'd give'em a case of the vapors. I know a couple of old guys in their 80s who have carried every day of their lives since they were very young men. They tell me that the practice was...and is...quite common among their peer group.

Either you can keep and bear arms or you can't. Either the right is infringed or it isn't.

If Arizona outlawed concealed carry tomorrow, my right to keep and bear arms would not be infringed, because I would be perfectly free to carry my guns openly.
 
Which said, gun enthusiasts owe more to Alan Gura as their champion in Heller than to almost any other person in the history of the country.

The result of his law suit was the most profound pro-gun change in the history of the country's laws.

Everything after Heller, (including even McDonald if you have even the faintest belief in states rights) is just icing on the cake, frill on the sides.

I would have to say that Dane von Breichenruchardt might deserve equal ot perhaps more credit than Gura.
 
If Arizona outlawed concealed carry tomorrow, my right to keep and bear arms would not be infringed, because I would be perfectly free to carry my guns openly.

That would be a de facto infringement. Infringement defined as any encroachment on a right or privilege. Any...encroachment. Placing a restriction on how the arms may be borne is an infringement, no matter how you cut it. If they can ban the carrying of concealed arms, they can just as easily ban the carrying of open arms. Many jurisdictions have done so, and don't think that it can't happen in others...even where the law doesn't presently prohibit concealed or open carry. Stroke of a pen.

See also

Encroachment: To enter by gradual steps or by stealth into the possessions or rights of another.

Do the words "Gradual steps" and "Stealth" strike any oddly familiar chords?

2A doesn't say that we may keep and bear arms, as long as we bear them in the proscribed manner, at the state's whim. It says "Shall not be infringed." Period.
 
That would be a de facto infringement. Infringement defined as any encroachment on a right or privilege. Any...encroachment. Placing a restriction on how the arms may be borne is an infringement, no matter how you cut it. If they can ban the carrying of concealed arms, they can just as easily ban the carrying of open arms. Many jurisdictions have done so, and don't think that it can't happen in others...even where the law doesn't presently prohibit concealed or open carry. Stroke of a pen.

See also

Encroachment: To enter by gradual steps or by stealth into the possessions or rights of another.

Do the words "Gradual steps" and "Stealth" strike any oddly familiar chords?

2A doesn't say that we may keep and bear arms, as long as we bear them in the proscribed manner, at the state's whim. It says "Shall not be infringed." Period.

I don't think your opinion here is correct, and I am nearly certain it will never be adopted by the supreme court.
 
Well, now I'm back to agreeing with az.

Look at the wording, for example, of 1A: "Congress whall pass no law...abridging the freedom of speech..." Pretty clear, right? Yet there are plenty of laws abridging the freedom of speech: there's slander penalties, espionage (revealing state secrets) penaties, warnings that must be placed on tobacco products, noise ordinances, etc., etc., etc.

The standard today is that all enumerated rights can be limited if the limitation survives "strict scrutiiny."

Supposing either Heller's interpretation (that the RKBA is fundamentally about self-defense) or Miller's interpretation (that it is fundamentally about militia service) is correct, the state could still regulate which guns may be carried and the manner of carry, and could even restrict the right if the restriction was narrowly tailored and necessary to advance a compelling state interest.
 
I don't think your opinion here is correct, and I am nearly certain it will never be adopted by the supreme court.

It wasn't offered as an opinion, and I didn't write the definitions of "Infringe" and "Encroach" which are pretty clear, as is the wording of 2A.

And I don't think that the SCOTUS will ever admit that it means exactly what it says, either.

If the framers of the Constitution had only foreseen the political corruption that was to come, and had simply written:

"The right of the people...to keep and bear arms...shall not be infringed." It wouldn't have left any latitude for interpretation and we wouldn't be arguing these points.
 
Correct, the supreme court writes the "definitions" of those words.

I don't think there's any real likelihood that they'll write them in accordance with what you think they should say.
 
Correct, the supreme court writes the "definitions" of those words.

Nope. I'm pretty certain that those words were defined several centuries before the Supreme Court was a twinkle in John Adams' eye. The Supreme Court interprets words and phrases...and not always in accordance with the Framers' intents or desires.

I don't think there's any real likelihood that they'll write them in accordance with what you think they should say.

Neither do I, and it's not about what I think they should say. It's what the Founding Fathers thought they should mean...and how they were to be interpreted. They really should have been more pointed in the wording, but they couldn't see the magnitude of the future corruption.

Tell me...Do you believe that the 2nd Amendment grants us the right to keep and bear arms?
 
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