help with Kettner info

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[email protected].

hmm... so what caliber cartridge does that mean ...??

If you need assistance in e-mailing them ( they should have sum1 speakin g english though...)

Very nice gun.
 
The normal way of selecting barrels on these is with a multi-position safety switch/button on the tang, that sometimes also pivots left and right to select the side to be fired (you might be able to see some wear spots showing where the selector points are); regardless, I would be very interested in seeing how the lockwork on this thing operates.
 
Andy, good to see you are on your way. I imagine you will find steps cut into the sides of the hammers as additional striking surfaces and some sort of selectors. Is your rear sight operated mechanically or simply hinged?

If you have any intention of firing this gun there are several issues. In that antiquated gauge system. The measurements may be from land-to-land or groove to groove. A surviving example is the .303 British which takes a .312 projectile. Slugging the barrel and chamber casts are in order.

I saw a post mentioning the 9.3x74R, a modern magnum class cartridge, a big no-no. I am betting on either an 8.15mm or 9.3mm blackpowder era cartridge.

The Edward Kettner Co. is a big sporting goods concern in modern Germany. Prior to and during the war Suhl, Thuringia was a major arms manufacturing center. Extensive remodeling courtesy of the 8th U.S. Air Force followed by Soviet occupation took care of most if not all historical records.

I really don't think firing is a reasonable goal or worth the risk. Drillings (triplets) are fairly common. One occassionally encounters a Vierling (quadruplet) usually a drilling with a .22 inside a raised rib. Drillings are essentially SxS shotguns with a rifle barrel underneath. This gun is off my map. I lived and hunted in Hesse for three years and never heard "funfling". The value of this piece has got to be in thousands.

Please continue the thread and post a bunch of photos particularly of any markings.

Waidmann's Heil,
Bill
 
Bill, Thank you for your interest and information. the numbers stamped on the barrels (top 4) all say 129/43. Based on the info the German Gun Collectors info I have found that these numbers equate to a .330 inch bore. That in millimeters is 8.382. It seems your 8.13mm suggestion might be accurate. The lower barrel is another issue. It's stamp is 67/49 and equates to .410" or 10.4mm. Any suggestions there?

As far as firing the rifle, that is not my intention at this point if ever. I am more interested in restoring it to as perfect a condition as possible and knowing all there is to know about it.
 
Andy,
10.6 X 60R was the German service cartridge of the day. It was shouldered at mid-case, not tapered or straight, there are many possibilities.

Restoration of antique firearms is an iffy proposition, proceed with caution.

I believe you first need a qualified appraisal. I can suggest www.gamefairltd.com as a place to begin. the owner John can likely direct you.


A more detailed description and pictures, please!

Regards,
Bill
 
Ok. More pics.

Stamps on the lower barrel. It must be removed to expose these. the other is a nice side view of the detail
 

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end of barrels and trigger detail
 

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I would not touch a hair on this guns head other than to clean or preserve . I see nothing that needs restoring. My 2 cents on that area.

I am very curious about the working mechanics of this gun. The exterior photo's so far give no insight as to how the barrels are seperated for firing. If the top barrels are indeed all meant to go off at once, it would be a unique special order feature, and plainly, no matter what, this gun was likely set up for dangerous game.

A devistating volly of 4 shots to stop a charging lion and a big bore spare for backup would be a wonder to behold when fired. Personaly I think you have a museum piece of great interest to the history of firearms as a whole. Enjoy the research, I certainly would. As advised, I would approach any "restoration" with professional caution and even cleaning should be carefully approached. I thank you very much for sharing this unique firearm with us - it simply put, is a treasure.
 
Andy,
Looking at the bottom barrel proofs it my opinion that your gun predates the 1891 proof law which actually became mandatory in 1893. Skipping translations the U is a basic inspection mark. The R indicates Re-proof after repair or alteration (reboring, rechambering). The G indicates a rifle. The gauge system we discussed. The mark on top I don't recognize. If there are not similar marks on each barrel it tends to confirm my dating. A few years later they were including bullets weights and powder charges and dropped the gauge nonsense. So my guess is the bottom barrel was altered after the law took effect.

The speculation about the weapons purpose will have to be answered by the calibers. I tend to doubt the dangerous game theories, absent some selector system volley fire maybe?. While Germany had African colonies prior to WWI blackpowder guns for that purpose tended to be of larger calibers.

Red Deer and European hogs can take some killing and in those days the druckjagd, or game driven by beaters was the norm on many estates. Maybe the four top barrels were simultaneously fired if running, the heavier rifle barrel if stationary? Later the buchseflinte or shotgun-over-rifle became very popular.

I suppose you could shim pencils by wrapping tape around them so that they would slide down the barrels with the erasers resting on the firing pins, then see if all four are ejected with a single trigger pull. Looking at the action and triggers I don't see a selector system.

This piece is so unique and expensive to make anything is possible.

The previous post's comments are largely on the mark. Also, barrel length and weight?

Regards,
Bill
 
Bill,

I have dissassembled the firing mechanism from the hammers down through the firing pins. One hammer has a one piece rod that is directly hit by the hammer and is the actual firing pin. The other hammer is quite different internally. The hammer hits a pin that, on the outside, looks identical to the one under the other hammer. When removed though, it looks something like an intake or exhaust valve on a car. Small on top where the hammer hits it and flanged out wide internally. The flanged end has 4 firing pins under it. All contact the flange together.......so when this hammer drops all 4 pins are struck. There is no selector to be found and the design is too simple to be misunderstood. Interestingly, it is this hammer that shows the most wear. Someone must have had some fun using this thing back in the day. And a sore shoulder, I would surmise.

I will pull this area apart and try to get detailed pics of the mechanics.

Where would I get the castings done at?

Andy
 
I tend to doubt the dangerous game theories, absent some selector system volley fire maybe?. While Germany had African colonies prior to WWI blackpowder guns for that purpose tended to be of larger calibers.

I agree with the larger calibers being more prevailing on dangerous game guns, but as this thing is set up to fire 4 barrels at once, I would suspect the larger calibers would be too much gun X 4 , and therfore the smaller calibers being used would add up to enough gun. Just a thoery however, but one that makes sense to me. (Big Cats)
 
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Andy,
A real smith should be able to use cerrosafe or a similar substance to cast the chambers. Another alternative (in my case) is a dentist. Slugging the barrel is a simple matter of soft lead balls (barely oversize) a nonmetal malet and hardwood dowels barely undersize. Carefully tap them through (or in a way, then out) and measure the land and groove diameters with a caliper.

In strong light with a small diameter rod you may be able determine if the cartridges are: straight walled, tapered, shouldered, their approximate length etc.

I have an RWS reloading manual (from Germany), Cartridges of the World, and the old Stoeger Case-forming Manual. I can give some feedback?

On both sides of the Atlantic during the period their were myriad cartridges many proprietary. I'm betting the top four are carbine class. I can't imagine absorbing four even moderately recoiling rounds.

Bill
 
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Here are some details pics of the mechanics. You'll notice the lower pin sticks out a little. The return spring is a bit whipped.

I will check around locally to see if there is a smith that can cast and slug the barrels.
 

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Ok, I admit it... That is one of the coolest rifles I have ever seen. I am awarding Andy 15 Internets for the day.
 
Andy (and MNrr),
If you can an approximate chamber length and a sense of straight, tapered or shouldered I can offer some educated guesses.

Also regards the bottom barrel it was not uncommon for the Germans to re-label a British blackpowder express cartridge in metrics. The large barrel may give some grist to sway either MNrr or I as to intended location of intended use.

One thing I think we all agree on is that: This the stuff that dreams are made of. Thanks for the opportunity to share in your wealth.

Bill
 
Stop.


Don't do anything else to it until you have someone with far more competence than a local gunsmith look at this. I'd recommend you contact someone very familiar with museum quality work to help you on this journey.

Don't disassemble it. If you disassembled it already, don't reassemble it.


And you'll probably want to look writing an insurance policy just for this rifle. It's going to be that valuable.


And to think someone just gave it to your great Uncle. Wow.
 
Definitely good advice!

I still can't believe the flipping thing shoots 4 barrels at once! A portable "battery gun!" Who'da thunk it?

And...unfortunately, I'm REALLY concerned about this...

Chapter 26 said:
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

The guys who enforce this stuff do not mess around and don't care how cool or valuable it is.
 
more history

Timing was everything. And my Great Uncle was at the right place at the right time. A week or two after the war was over in 1945 his platoon was heading into Berlin and happened upon this gun shop in the area of Suhl. I believe it was actually Franz Kettner's retail store. I believe that whomever was keeping shop, possibly a Kettner(?), new that his sector of Berlin and its suburbs was going to fall under Soviet occupation and that it was unlikely a civilian was going to be allowed to own and operate a gun shop. One of the soldiers with my Uncle spoke fluent German and offered to take some of the guns to spare them from Soviet confiscation. Being of German decent (his mother was born in Leipzig), my Uncle was also allowed to take some guns. The shop owner was happy to see them go into the hands of Americans as opposed to the alternative.

I believe the shop was actually Kettner's shop because my Uncle came home with a few other guns and one happened to still have a tag on it. It is attached. It is for a small Belgian shotgun that I now also possess (and will need info on eventually).
 

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Andy,
Is it perhaps a 28 bore single barrel? My Deutsch is more than rusty! With a 29 or so inch barrel? I'll hit the books later.

I missed a mark earlier, the .43 Mauser is a 11.15 X 60R.

A caveat on the gauge marking system, as stated on the chart 108/49 is most common on the 9.3mm or.35 (land to land), the early ones take .364 bullets. Slugging is the way to answer the question; along with chamber casts.

But, Bullfrog and to a lesser degree other comments should be considered. This is very likely one-of-kind and very valuable.

I confess to shooting my old J.P. Sauer und Sohn guns and on occassion a Webley Mark I, but I'm half crazy. this gun is in a unique class.

Protecting the piece and getting a fair appraisal ought to be jobs #1 and #2.

I have your photos in their own special folder and would love to see more.
Thanks,
Bill
 
I share your concern. Any advice on how to proceed?
Probably the very safest option is to contact a lawyer and have him request an official determination from the BATFE's Firearms Technology Branch.

A letter from them declaring that this firearm does not fall within the purview of Title II of the National Firearms Act '34 would be extremely helpful.

That's a big part of their job, determining such things. To my layman's reading, this is a worrisome situation. To their authoritative view (really the only opinion that matters at all) it may not be a problem.

The chances of having a problem are probably not great -- to a casual observer this is like any other extremely rare, cool antique multi-barrel gun, and no one would suspect it fires more than one projectile at once -- but the stakes are extremely high if things were to go against you.

The penalties for a conviction for possession of any firearm that falls within the Title II list of definitions, and which isn't registered with the BATFE, are up to $250,000 and 10 years in federal prison.

Many folks will tell you not to worry about it -- who's ever going to know? But they won't be the one having to live with it, either way. I'd want to know.
 
I usually don't get involved in these ATF discussions but:

Does the genuine antique status carry sway, the not generally available ammo, automatic vs. simultaneous???

What of an end run, contacting the National Firearms Museum (NRA) and see if there is an ATF finding or determination in existence covering volley type guns.

Soliciting a determination would I suppose involve surrender for examination?
 
Gentlemen,

I have been advised by someone at the BATFE Technical Services Branch that my rifle falls under the C&R classification 29 CFR part 478.11 due to its uniqueness, rarity, age (over 50 yrs) and likely value (apparently alot). They advise that a museum curator can also categorize it as a C&R (curio and relic) for the purpose of placing it in a museum. I will have all this documented by the end of the week.

A sigh of relief.
 
Does the genuine antique status carry sway, the not generally available ammo, automatic vs. simultaneous???
Antique applies, but machine gun applies first.

Yes, unavailability of ammo might play into how this is applied, but these days someone, somewhere is making most kinds of ammo for commercial sale. Some of it is real hard to find, but I wouldn't want to assume.
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Again, a machine gun is a machine gun first, if I understand correctly.

What of an end run, contacting the National Firearms Museum (NRA) and see if there is an ATF finding or determination in existence covering volley type guns.
That is a really good idea.

Soliciting a determination would I suppose involve surrender for examination?
I've never gone down this road. It may be a description is sufficient to get some determination.

Of course, if the gun is illegal (and I'm not arguing definitively that it is ... but IF it is) then forfeiture is the only lawful recourse anyway. As painful as that may be.

(Supposedly there are instances of certain highly historic or valuable guns being allow to be transferred to a museum instead of going to the ATF. I don't know about that for sure.)

automatic vs. simultaneous
I quoted the law verbatum. ("...automatically more than one shot ... by a single function of the trigger...") How that is applied I can't say.
 
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