house robbed today while everyone slept.

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I guess telling them "Hey stupid, YOU JUST got robbed less than 18 hours ago and here you are leaving all the same doors open, are you asking for it to happen again?" is controlling their life.

Statistics and Criminologists will tell you that someone burglarized once, especially when they encounter NO resistance and take very little are VERY likely to repeat their acts. It was easy as going shopping at Wal Mart and being directed out the front door without having to pay.

I am NOT against the gun...I had told them it would be a good idea to get a gun for a very long time. Truthfully, the only reason he did not get one for so long was because he is CHEAP! He thought anything over $200 was too expensive for something that will live in a dresser drawer.(I personally think, especially considering their and my income, there should be no budget on something that one day may be used to save a life, possibly yours or someone close to you.)I know this comment will catch me flak, but I would not trust my life on a $189 Hi-Point. Certianly not when I very easily could afford a GI 1911, Glock, S&W M&P, etc. (Yes, many will aruge that the Hi-Point is as reliable as the most expensive Colt, STI, Kimber or Rock River...I just do not trust them for anything more than shooting a piece of paper hanging on a target line)

He finally did get one after he spoke with some people at work and realized gun owners are not mostly right wing paranoid nutjobs looking to kill anything and anyone. And in FL, aspecifically our area, probably more "well-to-do-middle class" have them then not. but having very little experience I highly encouraged him to take a class from a professional. Prior to him doing so, despite me continually showing him how to operate, store, care-for and use a firearm he continued to mix up the mag release with the slide lock, continued to try and assist the slide forward resulting in it not reaching full battery. I assumed that it was his refusal to as the moderator said "not let his child "out-smart" him. After the course, he seems like he really understands the firearm. So it was a very good thing for him and was clearly very successful! (For me, well worth my $60 bucks or whatever it was)

BUT now after this incident he has come up with irriational opinions and comments on both sides of the fence (Over zealous, aggressive and confident as well as not willing to actually use the gun or risking more harm to himself because of it)

INSTEAD of taking a side, I have told him he either come to terms with the possiblity of having to use the gun when it is appropriate AND necessary to do so OR get rid of the gun or at least do not keep it readily accessible because running out to confront a burglar with an unloaded gun and making verbal threats to him is EXTREMELY reckless. This could result in him and his wife (my mother) receiving more bodily harm or death than if he just avoided the threat all together! If he is NOT prepared to use deadly force that is fine!!!, but he needs to just lock the bedroom door and call the police, hide in the bathroom until they tell him it is safe to come out. (While this is certainly not what I would do, it is the best option for certain people!!!).

Again, I am NOT giving him an opinion in either direction. I am just telling him he in fact NEEDS to take a direction because his current path is historically the dumbest and MOST dangerous one he can take.
 
My mother is more concerned with aesthetics and the beauty of the glass etching, and anything that uglies that up would NOT be permitted. Because she lives in a perfect world were she can leave the keys in her unlocked car, and swing the door open without looking through the peephole when it unexpectedly rings at 10PM even though they have had maybe 10 visitors in the 14 years they have owned the house.

BUT I am NOT aware of such thing as a "door closer that automatically locks" Would this device work on a sliding glass door with a lock that switches up or down instead of a twisting knob lock?
 
Sam1911 said:
Ok, ok...let's not get too heated with each other.

Your folks have had a rude awakening. What messages they take from the experience will be their own to decide. You've tried to help them see reason (better late than never, it is supposed) but it sounds like their fear and frustration are getting the better of their logic. Further, responding appropriately to their child's (not that you are A child, but their progeny) concerns for their safety may be embarrassing and off-putting to them, as it represents a certain role-reversal they've probably not prepared to face.

If anything, I'd try to talk them gently down off the kill-em-all ledge. They very likely were in no real danger from this particular burglar. While there's no way to know for sure, they were probably the victims of their own complacency and gave a ner'do-well punk kid (very likely the local boy you suspect, or someone like him) a chance to snatch something, and that's all there was to it. The doors being locked would have likely helped a great deal. A shotgun ... really wouldn't have been the right answer.

While I think everyone should be armed and recognize their own responsibility for their security, that should come after sober reflection and careful self- and situation evaluation. Not as a panic reaction to an unpleasant incident, which leaves them both vulnerable and risks to themselves and their own loved ones.

Try to get them settled back down. Try to ease them down a bit and maybe encourage them to not sleep with one eye open and their finger on the trigger, so to speak. Continue to encourage them to LOCK the FRIGGIN' DOOR -- and enact other reasonable safety measures. (Heck, they're only in their 50s? They can learn to operate an alarm system.)

When they're over the shock of becoming a crime victim, then maybe revisit the firearms issue. Help them understand the law (make sure you really understand it yourself, though...:scrutiny:) and see that they have some realistic and effective ideas about how armed home defense should work.

(You could search her on terms like, "Don't Clear Your House," panic room, "fatal funnel," defense-not-offense, don't kill or die over "stuff", etc.)

Sounds like they're just in panic mode and they aren't prepared to think clearly under those conditions. Be patient with them, comfort them, and help them as you can, when you can.
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Thanks for your comments.

One of the comments my father made was that he would get an intruder to come out into the hallway so they would have nowhere to go. I tried to explain "fatal funnel" to him and depsite being in a military combat unit, my brother being in the Army and an Iraq veteran, half my friends being cops, me being a graduate of a police academy, having spent many days on tactical ranges and shoot houses training for room clearing, urban combat, CQB and anything else that could have taught me a thing or two about what he just said being A REALLY dumb idea, he insists on arguing with me about how "well no because....then they cant go anywhere..." YEAH DAD, but the way that house is set up, the only way for you to see down the hallway is to be in it yourself and thats the WORST idea you can do!
 
I ALSO just a few days ago convinced him it is pointless to keep the loaded magazine in one drawer and the gun in its case in another drawer. There are only two adults in the house, NEVER any children. He continually says if he hears a threat he will go out with the gun and magazine together but NOT one chambered and will point the gun and threaten the intruder before he loads a round. I again try to convince him that he is giving them a chance to attack, pull their gun or disarm him and he will be unable to fight off someone AND load a round.
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My father for awhile when he carried his 92, he carried with the magazine out of the gun and with only 5 rounds in it and said that he would be able to load it first and he said he could take down someone with just 5 rounds. I never understood his reasoning behind that.
 
Baby steps.... I am a gun owner and I used to think about home defense in stupid ways.... somewhat like your parents in many ways.

(A true story) Well, my home was burglarized at 3:00 AM and I was alone and sleeping. They came in, and out in what I would guess to be less than a minute. They stole my photography equipment which was sitting on my dining room table. (At the time, I was very active as a serious amateur photographer with hopes of being a bit better....)

The point is I thought about home defense and I had loaded firearms in my house. I was asleep, and at least one person walzed into my house in the middle of the night and could have done most anything they wanted to me because it simply didn't occur to me that there "could" be an intruder inside my house at night and I would still be sleeping. I didn't know until about lunch time the following day when I was looking for my phtography equipment. Changed my life.

So they need to somehow believe that things can happen to them, bad things. There are more people today that have no moral constraints. There is no little voice in their head saying this is a bad thing they are doing...

Start with locked doors. A dog, any dog would be a good addition. They have much better ears than humans. Next, I would try to tell them that when it comes to personal defense, you do what is necessary to protect yourself from what you believe to be imment danger to your life. You can play games in your head, but down deep they need to understand that you protect yourself period... whatever it takes to eliminate the danger. If pointing a gun makes an intruder lay on the ground and whimper for mommy, then they didn't have to shoot. If not, they need to be prepared to shoot. If they can not do this, they need to take precautions to try to not make it too easy for an intruder.

#1 Lock the doors. Based on what you say, I would suggest they lock the doors all the time unless they are out in the yard. My wife is particularly bad about this. Keep a house key in their pocket all the time or hidden. I have been locked out before and it is not nice.
#2 Keep the garage door closed.
#3 Learn how to shoot at least at a basic level so you are not too clumsy under stress.
#4 Ask one of your police friends to visit and sit down with them and chat about home defense. You might want to be there to listen.

From there it will be up to them whether you like it or not. Things happen. Bad things happen. They need to understand that it can happen to them and reasonable precautions are a good thing to initiate into their lives.

Carry gun... up to them...

Things can happen.... in my city a guy came out of a mall restaurant after the mall had closed. He was confronted by a gang in the parking lot on his way to his car. (He was white and they were black.) He had no gun. They beat him to a pulp. Only the entrance of a family (father and son) that came out and saw what was happening may have saved his life. They called 911 and proceeded to do what they felt was appropriate... they jumped into the furay and tried to stop things at great danger to themselves. I might use the word hero. Could have worked out differently and they were hurt or lost their lives. But the police showed up and the gang members split up and ran. If this person had been carrying a gun when he came out of that restaurant, things may have been a lot different. He could also be dead instead of just being in the hospital. But that is part of the dice we each roll every day of our lives. We don't know what is going to happen tomorrow. But in the case of your parents, it would not be unlikely that these people come back.
 
Forget the dog - the simple fact is someone knew exactly what they wanted, exactly where it was, and exactly when to strike.

95% chance it was someone the family knows, who has been inside your home more than once before - One of your parents friends, one of your friends, that neighbor who comes over for dinner, uncle Bob, ect.
 
atlantis said:
That said, with the dog not making a sound, is it possible it was someone they would have known?
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This was the first thought to enter my head when I saw that the dog slept through it too. That's either an old, decrepit dog, or the burglar was someone who knew them.
 
IMO, if they aren't going to secure their house, they definitely don't need a unsecured firearm in it.

They are adults, if they aren't going to take responsibility for their own security, there's not much you can do besides talk with them. Better yet, maybe someone "not their son" needs to talk with them... without their son present. Some people have a problem with their "kid" telling them what to do.

They may also just have some difficulty adjusting to the idea that they don't live in the world they dreamed they were in.
 
BUT I am NOT aware of such thing as a "door closer that automatically locks" Would this device work on a sliding glass door with a lock that switches up or down instead of a twisting knob lock?
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No, a automatic door closer (like every store has to close their door, with the door knob being one that is set to lock from the outside when closed - think basic motel room set up)

I am just telling him he in fact NEEDS to take a direction because his current path is historically the dumbest and MOST dangerous one he can take.
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NO disagreement there - but it is HIS and HERS decision to make

What it comes to is not what you are saying, but how it is coming across to them - the idea of having a third party have a soft gentle talk with them (pastor or???) - someone whose opinion they value and trust who is not a family member - would be good.

No different than the guys who get frustrated trying to teach their gf/spouse to shoot - they always do better taking the same instruction from a third party - you might try that with your folks

If they have lived there a while and it has always been safe, ala Mayberry-style, then they might not get it how it has gone south

Just don't push - they need to accept it as their idea for it to work
 
I write again... You can't "control" your father's decisions. You can only "influence" your father's decisions. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can calm down and deal with this rationally.

ETA: If someone (anyone) told me what I can and cannot legally do in my own home I'd show them the door. If it was my son and he persisted in trying to force me into his way of thinking then I'd show him the door too... and double-time.
 
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Here is my problem: I CANNOT get my parents to realize in this economy, there is no such thing as a "safe neighborhood".
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Most likely you were burglarized by someone you know, so it's not a "neighborhood" issue at all.


I bet if the police caught the burglar, called you and said, "We have your stolen computer and need to you claim it, also the suspect is named _______ and we need to know whether you still want to aid in prosecution?" your reply would be NOT to charge him/her/them with the burglary.

Sure you're PO'd now, but when the police have your brother or cousin, or sister's fiancee' in custody... for real, it's a totally different story. I've seen it more times than I can count***.. virtually EVERY time I've made an arrest for a burglary.


Additionally, this isn't an economy issue either.


It's about WHO someone in your family chooses to associate with.



*** I recall a time I responded to a report of a car theft. Same story, unknown people sneaked into the hotel room, stole the keys and took the car. Nobody knows anything, no leads. I get lucky, find a security camera. I watch for hours, and finally I see some girls walk down the street, then they are hanging out by the room, then they take the car. I gfo back to the room, it's almost noon now. The victim's son and his friend were passed out in the bed, intentionally disinterested in the crime. I roust them up, interview them, and I finally get them to admit they were out late. The timing converged with the teenage girls we saw, So my partner and I light into them, "Who were those little ____s you were out with? They took your mom's car! Who were they? Where did they go?" The parents finally have enough of us pressing the boys and ask us to look at the camera evidence. My beat-partner shows them a video-still image of the suspects, which he captured on his smartphone... The mom's eye's light up when she recognizes her own son and his friend, dressed like teenage girls, driving off in the car. OF COURSE, she doesn't want to aid in prosecution of her own son. The son starts crying, threatens to hurt himself... and if the 6 hours I wasted solving the "theft" wasn't enough, now I have to counsel a adolescent gay kid who's secret is out of the bag. He divulged to me that he and his friend talked to an older man on the gay hotline, drove to meet him, they partied, got drunk & high, crashed the car, and abandoned it. Then they walked home, crawled into bed and played dumb when the car was discovered to be missing. At this point, I had to look for the car, verify there were no hit and runs, or hit and run property damage reports, etc. A glorious waste of time.




It's almost always somebody you know, or thought you knew.
 
DaisyCutter - I dont care if it was my own brother or son (I dont have one but....) that stole the computer. The fact that they violated someones "castle" and risked injury or death to themselves is EXTREMELY stupid. I would prosecute them to the fullest. Giving wrist slaps does not teach lessons, IMO.

OF COURSE - I would most like to drop a pistol on the counter, rub his nose in it and explain to him that had my father woken up, he very likely could have found himself at the fun end of this. Of course I would NOT actually do that, because of the legalities... BUT I think it would help the criminal understand the reality better then handcuffs or a "stern conversation".

If they stole a pack of gum from 7-11 then maybe they sohuld get a wrist slap the first time. But burglary is MUCH different.

When I was 19 years old, I thought it would be funny to damage public property. I spent a night in jail and it was the best lesson I ever learned. It made me realize how stupid I was being, the reality of what the inside of jail is like and how it could have royally ruined my life. Lucky for me, I paid restitution, paid legal fees and got off with a VERY expensive lesson.
 
I have already signed my father up for another gun course and I know the owner from shopping at his gun store for many years. I have asked him to personally tailor a 1 on 1 course regarding the legalities and the responsibilities, realistic expectiations and everything that goes along with home invasions, burglaries, stumbling on an intruder ETC.

My friend even being a 10 year veteran Police Officer and being in his mid 30's, not a kid (in my parents eyes) were unable to convince them to lock the doors ALL the time.

This gun course instructor had done well at convincing him of other firearm related things. Hopefully he will convince him of these things....

I am buying a replacement lock for the house door from the garage, my father has installed those bars that secure sliding doors.

I drove by about 8PM last night, the car was locked, house door was locked and garage door was closed. Fence was closed.....THATS A MUCH BIGGER IMPROVEMENT.... I did sit around in my car and watch the neighborhood at night....ALOT of people riding bikes from the section 8 and trailer parks up the block. Those people would take the same short routes continually AND then meet up with a car that was driving around with no lights. VERY SUSPICIOUS.... License plates and descriptions were noted and given to the police.
 
The best convincing factor to get my father to lock doors is my mothers nagging. Which can be used to my advantage by talking to her about realistic reasons for LOCKING doors.

Perhaps that is the cause of the house being buttoned up last night.
 
Why did you buy him a gun, when you havent even fixed the lock for him yet? Have you taken him to a range to shoot his new gun? If not all you did was put a tool in his hands that he does not know how to use properly. Not knowing how to use that gun properly on top of the added stress of the situation when he may have to use it is a recipe for disaster.

And dont abuse your castle doctrine, unless you want it taken away, trust me I live in a state that dosnt have it and having it would put my mind at ease.
 
DaisyCutter - I dont care if it was my own brother or son (I dont have one but....) that stole the computer. The fact that they violated someones "castle" and risked injury or death to themselves is EXTREMELY stupid. I would prosecute them to the fullest. Giving wrist slaps does not teach lessons, IMO.
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You're preaching to the choir.

BUT everyone says that until I identify their family member or best friend as the suspect.

It's always someone who, if discovered in the act, could probably explain it away or convince you not to call the police.

The police can't charge a crime unless there is a willing victim, no victim = no crime. People won't aid in prosecution of a family member.

About the only time the State can prosecute without a willing victim is when it's domestic violence or child abuse. Also if the victrim is dead or unable to answer, then it can be presumed they'd be willing to aid in prosecution too.

FWIW, I'm a cop who turns 34 this month.

Ask your mid-30's cop friend how many authentic/genuine burglaries (committed by a stranger) occur while the victim is at home.

The fact is there are easier opportunities for real burglars.

Odds are that if the police lifted any latent fingerprints from your parent's home, and a match was made, they'd belong to someone who recently had permission to be inside your home.

They passed over wallets, cash, credit cards, and likely jewelry & RX drugs to take a computer??

Did anyone think your parent's owed them money?
 
BuckRub - I bought the gun much before this event. I have taken him to shoot not with his gun but with mine....His is a 4th Generation Glock 17....Mines a 3rd! So basically same gun!

I have sent him to professional gun courses with his gun.
 
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I doubt anyone thought they were owed money. BUT interesting you say that....My mother will hire the unlicensed guy who drives around with a gas can and chainsaw, no business card, no business vehicle, no insured, bonded, licenses etc.. to cut trees.

She will pay bubba to install countertops or cabinets or carpet / tile and stuff instead of going to reputable well known people because they cost a little more....(A practice I have often criticized).

Granted if that guy or Bubba is a friend or a referral from someone trusted, cool! But when hes fly by night unemployed looking to make a quick buck...OR possibly scope your house out without raising suspicion, its downright stupid.

Thanks for that. I'm going to copy your comments in regards to that and send it to them...
 
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My father claims they did not lift any prints becuase none were seen. But then he said they took his and my mothers prints...

I am thinking they must have then taken prints, because why else would they care to have theirs if they werent trying to match them against prints found...
 
She recently lost her companion of nine years about a month ago. She was a big tough girl prior becuase she had back up, but now is a little bit of a turtle hiding in her shell.

PLUS she is almost 10 years old so shes not so quick on her toes, like she used to be....She is soon going to be getting a Golden Retriever as a companion. Hopefully he will replace the role of our last Golden who was our sentry!

She has absolutely been fired as watchdog! But she is still our pet and the second best dog, passed by ONLY the one I just lost that I have ever owned. I would take a bullet for that dog like I would one of my family or friends.
 
Maybe a wake-up call for your dad would be to ask where the will is located and what is in in it. Also be sure you know where all the necessary papers are kept for insurance and bank accounts. Sound to me this is something bad waiting to happen.

Sorry you have to deal with family members that don't understand the need to take responsibility for their own safety and security.
 
Looks like there's plenty of good advice and encouragement for now.

Dennis, feel free to send me a PM if there are any further developments that need to be shared.
 
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