what handgun range to shoot at for HD

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Michael R.

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hello,
i was recently went to the range with my dad. the RO asked me if i wanted the 15 yard range or the 10 yard range. i chose the 15 yard range. i did pretty good with my ruger p95 and 5.9 grains of power pistol and 115 grain fmj bullets, but i kind of wished i had shot it at 10 yards. so, what handgun range would be best to shoot at for home defense? would it be under 10 yards? i see no use in shooting a pistol at 25 yards, so which range would be best for HD?
 
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Practice at a variety of distances. Don't get locked into one routine. I'd say 15 yards is the max if all you're concerned about is home defense, though I won't say 25 or even 50 yards has no value.

EDIT: This doesn't really seem like the right part of the forum for this question, you'd probably get more and better responses if you posted elsewhere.
 
Sean has the right idea.

First you need a solid basis in the fundamentals of marksmanship -- grip, trigger control, sight picture, follow-through -- so you can shoot accurately. What range you use to establish and maintain those elements really isn't all that important. If you can keep every shot in the 9 or 10 rings of whatever target you're using for that kind of drill, then back it up a bit and challenge yourself to do it at longer range. This is merely establishing the very basics -- the simplest building blocks upon which your practical skill set will be constructed.

If you were practicing for basic marksmanship, to compete in a bulls-eye match for example, that's all you need to worry about.

But you've indicated that your concern is defensive shooting. Whole 'nother ballgame. For that you must move beyond basic marksmanship practice and into how to USE the gun as a tool to solve "practical" shooting problems. Picking a distance at which you will practice all your shots is kind of the antithesis of that.

In practical scenarios, your shots may be anywhere from contact distance, fired from a gun-retention position, out to 15-25 yds. You have to know instinctively how to take any shot that presents itself.

Defensive shooting means that someone is shooting at (or otherwise attempting to harm) YOU. So, defensive shooting is, by necessity, a balance of accuracy -vs.- time.

You need to practice how to take the quickest accurate shot you can, or said more precisely, the fastest shot you can take and still make an effective hit -- at whatever distance a shot presents itself.

That means you should be practicing hammering multiple good hits on 3-5 yd. targets at a rate of about 4-5 shots a second, requiring the very briefest flash sight picture for each shot.

And also practicing how/when to take a slightly better sight picture and make the same good hits at 7-10 yds. with a slight reduction in that speed.

And then, teaching yourself how much time you must take to "dress" your sight picture to make just as good hits at 15-20 yds.

With practice, you'll stop looking at this as, "I can shoot all my shots into 2" at 7 yds, and into 4" at 15 yds, and into 6" at 20 yds..." and move into the mindset of "I can put two hits into the center-of-mass at 5 yds in one second, drawing from the holster. I need to slow down to 1.5 sec. to make those same hits at 15 yds, and I should really drop back to 2 seconds or so to keep my hits effective at 20 yds."

If you're trying to shoot an attacker at 20 yds when your practice and skill set is limited to closer distances, you're going to miss.
If you're trying to shoot an attacker at 5 yds, and your practice is geared to chewing the centers out of bullseyes at 20 yds, you're going to die before you get off a shot.

So trying to pick a distance at which you should practice is kind of backwards. You need it all.

...

As an aside:

Once you start to get that way of looking at shooting skills, consider the other factors that would attend any defensive shooting situation. You (hopefully) won't just be standing still like a bullet magnet while you're shooting. So you should be practicing moving out of the way while you fire. (Moving off the "line of force.") But your adversary won't be standing still either. Can you make hits on a moving target? Many home defense scenarios involve hunkering down to observe an intruder and using your defensive position wisely. So, you probably need to be practicing shooting around cover. How quickly can you relaod if your gun goes empty? Do you leave the lights on 24/7? Might want to practice manipulating a flashlight and a gun at the same time. Now, what if your gun jams? Can you clear a malfunction quickly enough not to be out of the game? ... and on, and on.

A good defensive shooting instructor can teach you what you should be practicing on your own.
 
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I would figure out the longest possible shot you would have to make in your home defense scenario and be sure to practice to a distance a few yards beyond that so that you are good at your theoretical max distance.
 
Yep. Multiple ranges. But 10 yards is fine.

From touch-the-target range (in retention stance, while moving back off-line or to cover if possible); to 50+ yards occasionally, perhaps using a barricade rest. Not all shooting clubs (or all ROs) will allow that; stay within their rules.

I shoot 20-50 feet most often. At the closer ranges (10 yards is fine), go for speed on some runs (how fast can you fire and still keep a 6 inch group?); and accuracy other times (one ragged hole, by consistent sight picture, grip, and trigger press).
 
Sam did a very good job, and I agree. I'll add that it's desirable to allot some of your practice time to shooting at greater distances -- 20 to 25 yards or so. Shooting at longer distances is a good way to develop and maintain trigger control. Trigger control is fundamental, and jerking the trigger even at a close in target can cause a poor hit or miss.
 
Practice at a variety of distances.

I'm with Sam...

Don't be afraid of grouping though. The fundamentals you develop during slow aimed fire set the foundation for shooting fast and accurate.

Every time I shoot, I start out with dry fire, then do some grouping back to 25M, even if it's just 5 rounds per range. I find it relaxing, and it helps prepare mind and body for working on other tasks.
 
hello,
i was recently went to the range with my dad. the RO asked me if i wanted the 15 yard range or the 10 yard range. i chose the 15 yard range. i did pretty good with my ruger p95 and 5.9 grains of power pistol and 115 grain fmj bullets, but i kind of wished i had shot it at 10 yards. so, what handgun range would be best to shoot at for home defense? would it be under 10 yards? i see no use in shooting a pistol at 25 yards, so which range would be best for HD?
95%+ of SD shootings take place at less than 10 FEET. (and still the vast vast majority of the rounds fired miss)
 
Posted by mgkdrgn: 95%+ of SD shootings take place at less than 10 FEET. (and still the vast vast majority of the rounds fired miss)
Basis for that?
 
FBI study I read somewhere a couple of years ago. Average encounter was like 3 - 5 seconds, avg of 3 rounds fired, of which 2 miss.

Are there exceptions to that .. of course. But, the point is that a SD shooting is very likely to be a very "up close and personal" thing ... we are talking bad breath range ... and it's very often a "single elimination" type event ... first one to actually score wins. Fast is fine, but accuracy is finAL.
 
FBI study I read somewhere a couple of years ago. Average encounter was like 3 - 5 seconds, avg of 3 rounds fired, of which 2 miss.

According to Tom Givens, FBI stats cover LEO and FBI encounters only. Tom discusses several very important differences between LEO and civilian duties that make any conclusions for civilian application suspect.

My recollections of those are listed in this post.

There are reports for LEO confrontations, compiling the number of rounds that were fired, the enumber that hit, causalties, etc. However, those have little or no applicability to civilian encounters, for several reasons:
Civilians are generally expected to retreat, while sworn officers cannot.
Civilians do not make traffic stops, in which many shootings occur.
Civilians do not perform drug busts.
Civilians are not summoned to taverns to break up fights.
Civilians are not called to investigate domestic disturbances.

Thus, police data are not at all not applicable to what the civilian faces.

Whether there were and distance stats listed in Lessons from the Street, I cannot remember, but of the ten incidents that were recounted in detail, I do not recall any that involved "bad breath" range, and to my knowledge, Tom's report is the only compendium in existence of analytical data involving civilian self defense encounters..
 
I do not recall any that involved "bad breath" range
The NYPD analyzed ALL of their officer-killed shootings, 1854-1979. One-thired were within 3 feet. Of their officer-survived shootings, just over half were under 10 feet.

Sure: shootings for private citizens could be different, and things may have changed in the last 30 years. But my guess is not much different, and not much change. A study of 10 shootings is hardly enough to generalize from.

Of course, if someone could guarantee me I'll never need to shoot close-up from retention position, I'd gladly eliminate that from my practice.

On the other hand the shootings of a municipal LE force might be different than those of a federal one. The FBI predicated their ammo selection process on the fact that shooting through vehicles was a standard activity of their agents. Not sure that private citizens do a lot of that.
Civilians are generally expected to retreat, while sworn officers cannot.
Retreat is a tactical maneuver. Soldiers retreat. I certainly hope police retreat, when it is called for. Doesn't mean they should abandon an area of responsibility (although the LA riots showed sometimes they do that, too).

Oh, and by the way: police are civilians.
 
Posted by Loosedhorse: Sure: shootings for private citizens could be different, and things may have changed in the last 30 years. But my guess is not much different, and not much change.
I think differently. Private citizens will rarely be shot by someone whom they have willfully put in a defensive mode.

A study of 10 shootings is hardly enough to generalize from.
I agree that the data are sparse. Giivens studied five dozen shootings, and gave very detailed chronological accounts of ten.

Of course, if someone could guarantee me I'll never need to shoot close-up from retention position, I'd gladly eliminate that from my practice.
I wouldn't.

On the other hand the shootings of a municipal LE force might be different than those of a federal one.
Givens also provided details of a few FBI shootings. They were similar to the Rangemaster data in that the plain-clothes agents were attacked by thieves and muggers (who did not know that their victims were agents).

The FBI predicated their ammo selection process on the fact that shooting through vehicles was a standard activity of their agents.
True.

Not sure that private citizens do a lot of that.
They do not, and they really do not need to choose loads that will penetrate automobiles and plate glass.

I certainly hope police retreat, when it is called for.
They may get behind cover or concealment or outflank a suspect, but they are not permitted to retreat in the sense of a civilian's duty to retreat.

Oh, and by the way: police are civilians.
Quite some time before my arrival here, the staff decided to use this definition from Merriam-Webster: "one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force". Same over at The Firing Line
 
Private citizens will rarely be shot by someone whom they have willfully put in a defensive mode.
Not sure I understand how to translate this, especially as regards shooting distances. Can you help me out a bit?
the staff decided to use this definition from Merriam-Webster: "one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force". Same over at The Firing Line
Your choice. As you know, "civilian" means "governed by civil law"--police and firefighters are not covered by the UCMJ.

Hey, if you decide to say "militia" means "National Guard," that's fine, too. As long as we're all clear that many members disagree with Webster there, too.

Definition of MILITIA
1
a: a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency...

Meriam Webster online
Etymology

The word "civilian" goes back to the late 14th Century and is from Old French civilien, "of the civil law". It was used to refer to judges, lawyers, firemen, police, and other civil servants. Civilian is believed to have been used to refer to non-combatants as early as 1829...

...Under their own municipal law governments may extend the definition of who is a civilian to exclude those who work for the emergency services, because members of the emergency services may from time to time need additional legal powers over and above those usually available to ordinary citizens.

Wikipedia [emphasis added]

In my book then, it is true that during declared emergencies (martial law, etc.), emergency workers, including police, may be given special powers denied other citizens: at that moment, they would arguably no longer be civilians.

There is already too much "us vs. them" for my tastes in LEO-to-private-citizen discussions, here and elsewhere. Saying that LEOs are not "mere civilians" implies to me that they are above civil law, and widens the gap between us. If that is not what is intended by the policy, it is nevertheless probably an effect.
 
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As far as I personally am concerned, if you can't show a 201 file or a DD214, you're a civilian. But what I think individually is less relevant here than the oveararching culture, which is arrived at by mutual consent.

It is what it is. And that particular facet of THR culture has been defined, so let's leave it at that, shall we? No need to drag the OP's thread OT.

lpl
 
You're right. Said my piece; only said it here because I'm not sure it would fit better anywhere else at THR. But, done.

Still interested in that "defensive mode" idea, though.
 
Sam1911 said it best. Multiple ranges are what you need for self defense shooting. You can not go wrong with mastering the basics of handgun shooting.

It also depends on the handgun. A small .380 isn't the one to use for long shots.
 
Posted by Loosedhorse: Not sure I understand how to translate this ["Private citizens will rarely be shot by someone whom they have willfully put in a defensive mode"], especially as regards shooting distances. Can you help me out a bit?
My thought here is that the sworn officer will often be called upon to respond to a fight in a bar or a DV report or a traffic stop, any one of which situations requires him or her to get extremely close to a suspect to perform his or her duty, and any one of which can result in resistance that may involve arms.

Unless the suspect produces a weapon while the officer is at greater distance, no shooting will occur.

That does not mean that the lawful defender will not be attacked by someone who believes that he can get away with it who may manage to get into retention distance, but I think it does mean that there is no reason to expect that the criminal attacker will not use deadly force until he is within arms reach, and there is therefore higher likelihood that longer ranges will sometimes be involved.

We cannot know anything about when or where a self defense shooting may occur, and we do not have much in the way of statistics on the subject.
 
Listen to Sam.

Defensive is much more to do with instinct and ingrained training than marksmanship. A top notch bullseye shooter may be able to drill out the X-ring at 25 yards time after time, but that has almost nothing to do with defensive shooting, which will be a very unpredictable and fluid situation.

Rather than concern yourself with range, make it a point of shooting in uncomfortable/unnatural positions at undetermined ranges and targets that present in a real world fashion.

Unfortunately, most ranges don't allow this, so you may end up having to pay for defensive pistol courses.
 
For HD, I'd measure the longest straight distance in your home -- it's usually a hallway, acorss the kitchen to the garage door entry, or from the top of the stairs to the bottom of the stairs.

A guesstimate for the average American home: 15 to 20 feet.

I'd practice with a handgun, firing one handed, holding a flashlight or a cell phone in the other hand. Practice with somethng as closely resembling your "bed clothes" as possible -- t-shirt, no vest, no boots, no gun belt, probably no speed reload. Hearing protection? Ballistic vest? Your call.

I'd practice one-handed barricade drills, kneeling, partially obscured targets, and shooting down hill (i.e. down the stairwell).

If you use a long gun like a shotgun, I'd practice shooting from a kneeling positon, or from behind a barricade like a bed. At very short diatances. Preferably with a weapon light to ID your target.
 
Others have already covered this to one extent or another, but I would be most concerned about stress shooting. Being shot at is very different than shooting paper. I would research stress shooting, or attending a training course if possible. In a real situation, the flood of adreniline and other hormones prepare your body for "fight or flight". Either way, your body shunts blood from your skin and extremities towards your muscles. Concentration, steady aim, and fine motor skills become much more difficult. You might also feel light-headed or a "buzz" from the increased oxygen... from increased HR and breathing rate.
If you have access to a closed range, or private property, I would conduct suicide drills until you are ready to puke... then try shooting. When loading/chambering, I would always chamber by pulling back on the slide and letting go. Due to the loss of fine motor skills and sweat, do not rely on the slide release.
If you have ample money and a like-minded buddy... consider training with simunition. It hurts much more than paintball and is much more realistic.
In my personal opinion, there is something to be said about a weapon with a high magazine capacity. Too many people relax on training and round placement because they feel over confident with a large bore. My real point is that scoring a hit is much harder than some people realize, especially against a trained attacker. Many people talk smack about 9mm, but my M9A1 with Hornady Critical Defense holds 18 rounds before a reload. Something to think about.
As far as what range on a stand-still paper target, I agree to varying the ranges. Most SD ranges will be within 7 yards. I shoot out to 50 meters for reasons others have already stated. I personally go with the saying "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". I would also practice varying shooting positions. I regularly practice 7 meter center hold... 15 and 25 meter right/left hand supported and unsupported... and even 50 meter prone supported. However, I also live by that a handgun is only to fight my way OUT of a situation... or to fight my way TO an AR.
Just my .02 cents.
 
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