30-06 and 8mm Mauser as Sniping Rounds

Well, the 7.62 NATO is our current standard sniping round and ballistically it's almost the same as the .30-06. In fact, I believe the M24 was originally designed to use .30-06 which is why it has the long action. Basically, if the 7.62x51 hadn't been invented, we'd probably still be using .30-06 as our sniping round.

The K98k was actually a pretty lame sniper rifle. The scopes used were hard to adjust and the k98 platform wasn't an especially accurate one to begin with, but that's the rifle, not the round. I'm unaware of any purpose-built sniper rifle that uses 8mm or a round based on it, but that might have more to do with standardization practices during the Cold War (7.62x51 in the West, 7.62x54 in the East) than with the round's performance, so I can't really say about the 8mm.

Both rifles performed to about the same standards. Scope were of similar power and the ammo itself was very close to be the same ballistics. I shoot a sporterized Mauser, a 98, amd it is more than capable of shooting MOA with good ammo. Sniping was done mostly in urban setting by the Germans and was very effective. Even in the country side neither side used sniping for the types of ranges we see today as a general rule.

The 8mm was the cartridge used by the Axis countries who lost the war. Had they not lost and thereby lost the right to military arms after the war, I think the 8mm would have continued as a sniping round for many years much as the 30-06 did for the NATO countries.

Reserch the yugo snipers thier in 8x57 and during ww2 the ballistics were actually almost the same.

Talking from a standard cartridge perspective alone, I do think that the hat goes off to the 8x57. It did fire a heavier bullet at a slower velocity than the standard M2 Ball we used, but the bullet was boat-tailed. Paired with the momentum, I think that makes for superior round for marksmanship.

As for scopes and the such... I am not even sure I want to touch on that subject. I have heard a lot of arguments involving ergonomics and etcetera.

There was no appreciable difference. Training, experience, and fieldcraft may have slanted things one way or another, but practically speaking there was no difference.

Both work just fine. That's why they have been around forever.

Sniping is just long range shooting at humans or equipment. Find a cartridge that will go as far as you plan on shooting and make sure it still has some punch behind it at that distance.

WWII Sniper confirmed kills:
Russian Mihail Surkov has been said to have killed 702.
Finnish Lance Corporal Simo Häyhä, aka "Valkoinen Kuolema" = 542.
Russian Lieutenant Lyudmila Pavlichenko – female sniper = 309.
Russian Junior Lieutenant Vassili Zaitsev (World War II) = about 200.
Russian Semen Nomokonov = 367.
Austrian Gefreiter (Private) Matthäus Hetzenauer = 345.
Austrian Obergefreiter (Private First Class) Josef 'Sepp' Allerberger = 257.
German Helmuth Wirnsberger = 64.


Seems the 30-06 didn't make the list, and the 8mm Mauser took a far distant second place to the 7.62x54R Russian cartridge.

Like 451 Detonics said, sniping was a close range game in WWII.
Long range ballistics or power played a very miner role in the results.

Any military caliber of the time would probably have done as well as another, given the target rich environment the Soviets had.

rc

The 30-06 was used by US snipers from WWII thru the 80s. The option to us it has always been there as various branches allow the soldier to use their preferred weapon. White feather (Carlos Hathcock) was one of the greatest snipers, and he carried a modified m70 with a fixed 8-power unertl. It was good enough to make a shot thru another sniper's glass at 800yards. There are better rounds now, but until the 308, 300win mag, 338lm, and bmgs came along, the 8mm, 06, and 6.5x55 were the standard. I believe the Germans had the best idea using the 7mms. We should also remember that those soldiers on the list above came from countries that have had a longer, and mostly more brutal time in war than we did. I'm not discounting anything our vets have done, but sadly a lot of those countries have had a tougher history in regards to constantly fighting for their lives, thus the higher body count. What'll really give u chills is how many of the most successful snipers were women.

Velocity, rifling, good optics... The list can be extensive.

The ability to handle 190gr and up bullets. It can shoot a 210 boat tail hollow point out to 1500 accurately. With long range shooting you'll be using a boat tail hollow point of 190gr or more. Ur looking for BC over .50. The g7 ballistics are such that they handle destabilization better than a smaller round. Ballistics are a tricky thing in that ur looking for the perfect trade off of speed vs ballistic coefficient. With 30 caliber rounds, that's 190-210. Anything heavier and ur loosing too much speed. I shoot a 300wsm with a 190 at 3000fps and have no problems at a mile. U just have to experiment. The 8mm doesn't compare to the 7.62 at distance. In hunting scenarios at long range u want a good BC bullet with a high sectional density such as a Berger vld, sierra matchking, or hornady amax. These are considered target bullets but they will kill at 1k. The damage is extensive.

a little off topic but, Mike venturino of guns mag and dave emary of hodgdon did an article a while back about the big major sniper rifles of ww2. with period ammo or as close to it as possible, the russian rifle ran away with the competiton at long range. The 7.62x54 round is still in use with the russians.

And even more off topic, can my 1956-ish Yugo 8x57 brass casings be reloaded? Or should I just dump them?.....

geez, if they are boxer primed and hove no cracks visible after cleaning, why not. but probably berdan primed, so not really. lots of 8x57 for sale on the internet

The Russians had it figured out before we did. That round is their equivalent to our 308win. Its an amazing short range sniper round.

rcmodel said:

Seems the 30-06 didn't make the list, and the 8mm Mauser took a far distant second place to the 7.62x54R Russian cartridge.

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I expect that is due to the nature of the war rather that any inherent deficiency in the cartridges used. Something like 90% of all fatalities in the European Theater took place on the Eastern Front; that appears to be where the most prolific Axis snipers were operating too.

RCmodel not sure where you got those #s about the snipers but here is an accurate list.( sorry its so long) World War II
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Simo Hayha Winter War Finland 542
Ivan Sidorenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 500
Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 494
Ivan Nikolayevich Kulbertinov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 487
V. N. Pchelintsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 456
Mikhail Budenkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 437
Fyodor Matveevich Okhlopkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 429
Fyodor Djachenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 425
Vasilij Ivanovich Golosov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 422
Afanasy Gordienko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 417
Stepan Petrenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 412
Erwin Konig W.W. II Germany 400
Vasili Zaitsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 400
Pyotr Alexeyevich Goncharov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 380
Semen D. Nomokonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 367
Ivan Petrovich Antonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 362
Abdukhani Idrisov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 349
Philipp Yakovlevich Rubaho W.W. II U.S.S.R. 346
Matth�us Hetzenauer W.W. II Germany 345
Ivan Ivanovich Larkin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 340
Victor Ivanovich Medvedev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 331
E. Nicolaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 324
Leonid Yakovlevich Butkevich W.W. II U.S.S.R. 315
Nikolai Ilyin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 315
Lyudmila M. Pavlichenko (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 309
Alexander Pavlovich Lebedev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 307
Ivan Pavlovich Gorelikov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 305
Ivan Petrovich Antonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 302
Heinz Thorvald W.W. II Germany 300
Gennadij Iosifovich Velichko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Moisej Timofeyevich Usik W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Nataly V. Kovshova &
Maria Polivanova (Female team) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Ivan Filippovich Abdulov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 298
Yakov Mikhajlovich Smetnev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 279
Liba Rugova W.W. II U.S.S.R. 274
Anatolij Chekhov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 265
Zhambyl Evscheyevich Tulaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 262
Josef Sepp Allerberger W.W. II Germany 257
Fyodor Kuzmich Chegodaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 250
Ivan Ivanovich Bocharov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 248
Mikhail Ignatievich Belousov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 245
Maxim Passar W.W. II U.S.S.R. 237
David Teboevich Doev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 226
Vasilij Shalvovich Kvachantiradze W.W. II U.S.S.R. 215
Bruno Sutkus W.W. II Germany 209
Mikhail Stepanovich Sokhin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 202
Friedrich Pein W.W. II Germany 200
Noj Petrovich Adamia W.W. II U.S.S.R. 200
M.A. Abbasov W.W.II U.S.S.R. 200
Gefreiter Meyer W.W. II Germany 180
Yekaterina Zuranova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 155
Vladimir Ptchelinzev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 152
Inna Semyonovna Mudretsova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 143
Joseph Pilyushin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 136
Feodosy Smeljachkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
I. Merkulov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
H. Andruhaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
Oleh Dir W.W. II Germany 120
Tatiana Igantovna Kostyrina(F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 120
Janis Roze W.W. II U.S.S.R. 116
N.P. Petrova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 107
V. N. Pchelintsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 102
Yelizaveta Mironova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R 100+
Aliya Moldagulova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 91
Nina Lobkovskaya (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 89
Lidiya Gudovantseva (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 76
Helmut Wirnsberger W.W. II Germany 64
Alexandra Shlyakhova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 63
P. Grjaznov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 57
Roza Shanina (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 54
A.P.Medvedeva-Nazarkina (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 43
Marie Ljalkova (F) W.W. II Czech Army 30
James Bedford MacArthur W.W. II Canada 9
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper

Nataly V. Kovshova & Maria Polivanova

(Female team) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300

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I think I'm in love.....

^ if you think you in love then maybe you should see some pictures i wouldnt want to meet her in a dark alley.

Comparing the ballistics of the two cartridges, I doubt there was any practical difference for a sniper. Whatever noticeable differrences existed likely were in the set-up of the rifles and the qualities of the scopes--and the training...

In hunting scenarios at long range u want a good BC bullet with a high sectional density such as a Berger vld, sierra matchking, or hornady amax.

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Not many hunters advocate the use of those particular products (SMK & AMAXJ) for big game.

They kill, any slug can kill, but those particular bullets are engineered for target shooting.
Specifically, terminal performance wasn't in the programmatic criteria.

Of course, it's always your choice. I won't criticize your choice.
But you may want to look into bullets engineered for the type of game you hunt.

No offense to anyone. If you like SMK for deer, more power to ya.

Aw, ants, let's not get into some weirdness about calling 1,000-yard shots at a deer as "hunting". Not gonna get a clean-kill hit out there, anyway, without a bunch of high-tech toys and a ton of blind luck on calling the wind.

Shots on animals at 1000 are not hunting. They're sniping. Judging the wind and doping correctly are a skill that few of us has. I've shot tons of targets from 1000-1mile. Targets don't take steps. LOL!! I didn't shoot a deer at 1k until last year and that's how I know the match bullets do lots of damage. I shot a doe at 965 approximately and an 8 pointer at 1124. The entrance on both was roughly half dollar but the exit was big enough to put ur fist through. Not pretty, but the shots can be made. I've been doin this at distance for almost ten years now and I can tell u that deer move more unpredictably than people.