Good Data on .308 v. 30-06

For factory loads in rifles with the typical barrel lengths around 22", there's no practical difference with 150- and 165-grain bullets.

The '06 does a bit better with the 180s because of the shorter case length of the .308; the bullet sticks farther into the case because of the overall-length limit.

One aspect is that it is common for the '06 to be loaded to 50 or 51 thousand psi because of the large number of older rifles; the .308 is commonly loaded to 55 thousand.

So: With my 26" '06 loaded to 55,000 psi, I would get about 300 ft/sec better muzzle velocity than a .308.

Some years back I did some basic math on this same issue. IIRC generally .308 was capable of 92% of the performace of 30-06. Again this was some time back and was probably in relation to surplus ball ammo.

Looking for convincing data on why for <180g bullets at under 350 yards, the 308 and 30-06 are equivalent in terms of stopping power.

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You know, a better strategy would be to look for convincing data regardless of whether it fits with your preconceptions

Here are some lnks to some reloading data. You can compare what is possible

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=2

http://www.ramshot.com/load-data/

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/308WinWeb.pdf

Just at a quick glance if you are using the best loads the 30-06 will beat the 308/150 gr by about 95 fps. 3068 vs 2974

The 30-06 is about 100 fps faster in 165's. 2878 vs 2773

The -06 is will be about 140 fps faster with 180's. 2840 vs 2683.

I hunted with nothing but a 30-06 for about 30 years. Think it is a great round and never a bad choice, but in recent years I've come to appreciate the smaller more compact rifles that can be champered in 308. While the 30-06 will always have an edge on paper I cannot think of a single hunting situation where the 308 won't get the job done and a 30-06 would be a noticeable improvement.

Even with heavier bullets the 30-06 does not have the advantage it once did. With most of the newer bullet designs a 150 gr bullet will now out penetrate the older 180 gr bullets.

I've been experimenting a bit with the new barnes 130 gr TTSX bullets in my 308. I'm still 2 grains under max load and am getting 3160 fps with 1" accuracy. They supposedly out penetrate standard 165 gr bullets. Haven't shot anything with it yet, but have read reports from guys who have had great success on both black bear and elk with this load.

I like both. I favor the 308 for hunting, but that's because of gun selection in my safe. Either will stop a critter with a well placed shot. Either will make a mess with bad shot. What are you hunting?

I doubt if the average person could tell the difference when shooting either caliber. The deer surely can't tell the difference. I reload both calibers but, I reload for accuracy, not velocity. chris3

I got started with a 30-06 back in 1963. I had no choice in caliber because dad won a Win model 70 featherweight in 30-06. It was the best high school graduation present I had, and still have it.

I learned to reload for it so I could afford to shoot all through college, and on into my Air Force years. I never saw the need for a .308 and never got one, but had the situation been reversed and the .308 was all that was offered in that contest, I would probably be shooting the .308 today.

I got started with the 30-06 in a similar manner. It was 1974 and I had been hunting with a shotgun, only thing I had, or a borrowed rifle for about a year. Saved up the money to buy my first rifle, but couldn't decide between 270, 30-06, or 308. I went over to my Boy Scoutmasters home to ask his advice. I knew he was a big hunter.

He took me to his storage building where he opened up a foot locker full of military surplus 30-06 ammo still on the steel belts for machine gun use. He pulled off about 10' and gave it to me and told me to come back for more when I shot all of that up. Made my decision a lot easier.

I own and shoot both and to me it is pretty simple. I prefer a short action as it usually makes for a lighter rifle, so, my preference is for .308, but you'd be challenged to tell the difference between the two other than action length.

The .308 has slightly less recoil, but they're almost identical from a ballistics standpoint.

Just at a quick glance if you are using the best loads the 30-06 will beat the 308/150 gr by about 95 fps. 3068 vs 2974

The 30-06 is about 100 fps faster in 165's. 2878 vs 2773

The -06 is will be about 140 fps faster with 180's. 2840 vs 2683.

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Absolutely no way of determining the velocity difference without actually shooting 2 rifles over a chronograph, and even then, the velocity difference is only with those 2 rifles. I have 2 .30-06 match rifles, both with 26" barrels, and with the very same load, one is faster than the other by 75fps.

Don

I have not tried it "yet", but Hodgden has a new powder for the 308....called CFE223.

If it does what Hodgdens load data says it will do in the 308...the 308 can do ANYTHING the 30-06 can do, even with the heavy bullets.

You can see the data for yourself on Hodgdens online data, but here is a screenshot...

I don't know...its not on the burn rate chart yet.

Thats true about calibers sharing powders...but I think it is slowly changing, to more specialized powders (such as the LeveRevoluton powders).

They may come up with something soon that will put the 30-06 within spitting distance of the 300 Win Mag...all depends on what they think they have a market for I reckon.

My point is...some of these new powders will do great things in some calibers, but may not be as "versatile" as the powders we are used to...just speculating though.

BBDartCA said:

Where does that powder fit in the burn rate index? Slower or faster than IMR 4350? Hodgon has load data on 270 for it and the 270 and 30-06 share some powders that are effective for both.

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While many powders do overlap 270 generally uses a notch slower propellants than 30-06.

Actually when you get to it 308 has more in common. Meaning any propellant that raises the bar for 308 will do so for 30-06 pretty much equally.

There's no replacement for displacement and 30/06 is just bigger than 308

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There's no replacement for displacement

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I'm not going to go any further into a caliber debate (especially not one as old as this one)...but thats not entirely true.

More efficient (specialized) fuel might surprise you, just look what it did for the 30-30.

I hate to be the anal engineer, and I agree that In a functional hunting scenario, the .308 will do 90% of what the '06 will do. However, I don't buy the argument that the .308 is the ballistic equal to the 30-06, only shorter, sleeker and cooler. Sure you can load the .308 to the gills with some of the excellent newer powders and get closer to factory 30-06 velocities, but when it comes to the heavy bullets, they really just are not the same.

For instance, the .308 load listed above uses CFE 223 powder to net 2615 fps with a 180 gr bullet. In comparison, in Lymans 49th, the best load for the 30-06 uses H-4831 to push a 180 gr bullet to roughly 2840 fps, or 225 fps faster than the 308.

While not utterly game changing, this velocity difference is significant. For comparisons sake, the best load for 300 win mag in lymans 49th uses RL-25 to push a 180 gr pill to 3084 fps, for a 244 fps gain over the 30-06. This velocity difference is very similar to the difference between the 30-06 and the .308, yet very few people claim that the 30-06 is the ballistic equal to the 300 win mag. Rant over, just some food for thought.

180 grains is the only bullet weight there that CFE223 didn't seem to like...or maybe its just the Speer bullet.

Some more food for thought...

Hodgdens data only shows 2,710 fps with H4831...but 2,840 fps with Superformance powder...and thats what I'm debating here by the way...powders, not calibers.

If you look close you will see one big difference though between those 180 grain 308 load and the 180 grain 30-06 load....the 308 used a Speer bullet, and the 30-06 used a Sierra bullet, I'd say that has something to do with it.

There's no replacement for displacement and 30/06 is just bigger than 308

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A truck analogy deserves a detour into some truck talk. You must not have driven the Ecoboost Ford trucks yet. (Outselling the excellent new V8's BTW) Yes, there is a replacement for displacement.

I drive a Lincoln MKS with the ecoboost V6 and can attest there is a replacement for displacement and with better mileage as well. You and your V8 will be in my wake before you even get that V8 wound up.

Somewhat analogous to newer and better powders in the .308 I think.

Ridgerunner,

Thanks for the delicious food for thought.. I realize that there is a lot of variability in load data and velocities between powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, and even between different rifle barrels. That is why I was using the data all from one book... trying to cut down on variability some, compare oranges to oranges and whatnot. Also, I believe the OP wanted to compare calibers, hence my post.

Special black-magic powders (which could be optimized for either cartridge) aside, the extra 21% case capacity of the 30-06 over the .308 (68 gr vs 56 gr) will always allow it to run higher velocities with similar bullets at the same pressure level given normal barrel length. Whether this difference is important is up for debate, but the difference is there none the less.

As an aside, I really like the idea of the new Eco-boost F-150s, I'm not a new car kind of guy, but I may try and pick one up on the used market in a couple years.

'06 has a bigger case, holds a tad more powder. .308 is short action and generally very accurate in good actions. There is no real answer to the question - hold the individual gun in your hands, buy the one that feels best, you get what you pay for. They both do the same thing, no one has ever shown that one can do anything the other cannot in a sporter weight rifle. I own both.

Hrrrm. The Soviet round is 7.62x39, the .308 is 7.62x51, and the 30-06 is 7.62x63. I notice no one is saying the Soviet round can be amped up to beat all .308s, yet the case length difference is the same. (I do realize it is a percentage thing, but it is still a valid point.)

As I recall, the .308 was developed as a more friendly to semi-autos cartridge to duplicate the ballistics of the original 30-06. Modern 30-06 is amped up above the original, probably due to the same powders that made the .308 equal to the original loading.

While it is possible to load .308 to meet 30-06 performance, it is akin to loading 38 Special up to 357 Mag levels. Yes, it can be done, but, for most commercial ammo, the 30-06 will outdo the .308, from what I understand.

Shot placement, no matter the gun, is penultimate. However, mitigating factors; wind, range, rifle rest, obstruction of view from natural objects, light, other animals, temperature, and last night's bean dip giving you gas all will play hell with your shot placement. This is why 'using enough gun' is important. I've chased enough other hunter's deer to learn that bigger is better, to a point.

HKGuns said:

A truck analogy deserves a detour into some truck talk. You must not have driven the Ecoboost Ford trucks yet. (Outselling the excellent new V8's BTW) Yes, there is a replacement for displacement.

I drive a Lincoln MKS with the ecoboost V6 and can attest there is a replacement for displacement and with better mileage as well. You and your V8 will be in my wake before you even get that V8 wound up.

Somewhat analogous to newer and better powders in the .308 I think.

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No there's not because when the ecoboost v8 comes out it will just be that much more powerful than the EBV6

this is why the bar always slides and keeps the 06 on top. Folks figure out that what's good for 308 is better in 30-06

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Ridgerunner665 said:

I'm not going to go any further into a caliber debate (especially not one as old as this one)...but thats not entirely true.

More efficient (specialized) fuel might surprise you, just look what it did for the 30-30.

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If you'll look at actual chrony results I think you'll find that nothing new has been done for 30-30 aside from some slick borderline misleading advertising.

A chrony is the ultimate BS Sniffer

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If you'll look at actual chrony results I think you'll find that nothing new has been done for 30-30 aside from some slick borderline misleading advertising.

A chrony is the ultimate BS Sniffer

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I did look at chrono results (mine is a ProChrono Digital)...2,300 fps with 170 grain bullets with LVR powder, thats an extra 100 fps over anything else (in that gun). And factory 170 grain ammo only got 2,120 fps IIRC.

Anyway...we are getting too far off topic...I'm just saying that these new powders have changed things up a bit, what was once impossible...isn't anymore, in some cases. Take this example, with the 35 Remington, written by a very knowledgeable reloader... http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,91642.0.html

I'm not trying to argue with anybody...I'm just trying to counter some of the old school thoughts that were once very much the gospel truth, but are not necessarily so anymore.

I think I've done that...and will let yall have it now