Selling gun cross State lines

Ryanxia · Nov 11, 2011

So I thought I read on the ATF's website a year or two back that you can't sell even a rifle or shotgun across State lines without a license.

My LGS told me that you CAN sell rifles or shotguns across State lines just obviously not handguns.

Any info?

BTW, Maine>New Hampshire.

Thanks in advance.

Alland · Nov 11, 2011

The only legal way to sell a long gun or a handgun in another state is to or through an FFL.

Birch Knoll · Nov 11, 2011

My LGS told me that you CAN sell rifles or shotguns across State lines just obviously not handguns.

Your local gun store can indeed sell long guns to a resident of another state, just so long as both states authorize such a sale, and the sale is in keeping with the laws of both states. The sale must take place on the FFL's premises; this can't be done through the mail.

Individuals still cannot sell firearms across state lines in a private sale.

CoRoMo · Nov 11, 2011

I'm going to start quoting fiddletown more often in these types of threads. He's put together straightforward posts that answer most all of these frequently reoccurring questions.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7693730&postcount=4
[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL.

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer is in compliance with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complied with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] This applies to all interstate transfers, whether a sale, a gift, a trade or anything else. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

GMcBoozer · Nov 11, 2011

One of my LGS told me the same thing, I asked if he was talking about a longgun in his inventory. He said nope, if you want to sell a rifle or shotgun to someone from Nebraska, you can do the sale yourself, as long as both state's laws are abided too. He was giving away a $27.50 transfer fee by saying this.

I am confused about this.

Edit: As I was writing this CoRoMo posted his response, that helped to clear some things up. Thank you.

I am still confused as how a respectable FFL could get something like this wrong.

CoRoMo · Nov 11, 2011

It's simple; many, many gun dealers don't know the law.

The law is clear...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer
Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State.

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides.

When giving a rifle to a relative, who lives in another state, for their birthday one year, I had to call dealer after dealer to find one who would do the transfer. Most all of them told me to just hand the rifle to the relative, who lives in another state, and be done with it. That is a felony though, and very few dealers could be convinced of it.

NavyLCDR · Nov 11, 2011

GMcBoozer said:
I am confused about this.

Nothing confusing about it at all. You deliver or transfer a rifle or shotgun knowingly to a person who is not a resident of the same state as you are, you violate 18 USC (a)(5) and commit a Federal felony.

When the purchaser transports that rifle or shotgun back into his home state, they violate 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and commit a separate Federal felony.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

According to 18 USC 922 (b)(3) an FFL can transfer a handgun to a person with residency in the same state as the FFL, and they can transfer shotguns and rifles to residents of just about any other state, given that both states' law will allow the transaction.

GMcBoozer said:
I am still confused as how a respectable FFL could get something like this wrong.

The three biggest sources of incorrect information regarding firearms laws are law enforcement officers, CCW instructors, and gun store personnel. At least from what we see on these forums.

GMcBoozer · Nov 11, 2011

NavyLCDR said:
The three biggest sources of incorrect information regarding firearms laws are law enforcement officers, CCW instructors, and gun store personnel. At least from what we see on these forums.

I will have to agree with you on this. Thanks to both you and CoRoMo for clearing things up for me, I'm glad I decided to go the safe route and have the FFL transfer it anyway.

Ryanxia · Nov 11, 2011

Thanks everyone, I thought he was mistaken, he is otherwise a knowledgeable guy and honest. But he did clearly state that an unlicensed person can sell across state lines.

Glad I didn't take his word for it

oneounceload · Nov 11, 2011

Nothing confusing about it at all. You sell a rifle or shotgun knowingly to a person who is not a resident of the same state as you are, you violate 18 USC (a)(5) and commit a Federal felony

TOTAL BS - you can sell the gun, you can't SHIP it to him directly - that has to go through the FFL

Bud's and others do not sell to your FFL, they sell to YOU - but they SHIP it to your FFL to complete the process

Sam1911 · Nov 11, 2011

TOTAL BS

Boy...we sure love to trip each other up over that one, don't we?

It is an unfortunate shorthand to say "sell" when we mean "transfer."

You, as an unlicensed individual, may not TRANSFER a firearm to an unlicensed individual accross state lines. You CAN sell it to him, but you'll have to go to an FFL dealer to do the actual transfer.

If it's a handgun, you'll have to go to a dealer in the buyer's state.

Birch Knoll · Nov 11, 2011

TOTAL BS

Wow, I'm impressed. That was a mighty fine hair you split there.

Birch Knoll · Nov 11, 2011

Your example of Bud's selling to residents of another state but transferring to an FFL does not apply, since Bud's is an FFL, and the discussion concerned nonlicensees:

18 USC a(5): [It shall be unlawful] for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

You'll note the word "sell" in the cite above. Sales between unlicensed persons in different states are illegal.

Ryanxia · Nov 11, 2011

While I'll take the safe route and do an FFL transfer, I'd like to get a definite answer on this.

Transfer and Sell seem to be separate points in this case. I guess I should rephrase the question to say;

"Is it legal for me to transfer/sell/give/donate a rifle or shotgun to a non-felon citizen of another State?"

Where in this case neither parties have an FFL or any other special permission and assuming both parties are not felons, etc.

I've read the ATF websites but as a helpful member of THR pointed out they try to make it confusing. (Not opening this sentence up to discussion)

Librarian · Nov 11, 2011

"Is it legal for me to transfer/sell/give/donate a rifle or shotgun to a non-felon citizen of another State?"

Unless the two parties go to an FFL, NO.

Interstate transfer, outside inheritance, always requires an FFL.

It's easier to do at an FFL in the state of residence of the person receiving the gun. If it were a handgun, it would be required to do that.

NavyLCDR · Nov 11, 2011

It works like this, Ryanxia,

You make whatever arranges with a private party who is not a resident of the same state as you are to obtain a gun from you. The arrangements of them obtaining the gun from you do not matter, gift, sale, renting, leasing. They make whatever payment, if any, to you for the gun. You ship or deliver the gun to an FFL. For a handgun, in the recipient's state of residence. For a long gun, an FFL in just about any state. That FFL then has the recipient of your gun come in, fill out a Form 4473, pass a NICS check or equivalent, then the FFL transfers the gun to them.

That's the legal way. For you to hand the gun to them for them to take possession of the gun is against Federal law, if they don't reside in the same state as you.

NavyLCDR · Nov 11, 2011

oneounceload said:
TOTAL BS - you can sell the gun, you can't SHIP it to him directly - that has to go through the FFL

Bud's and others do not sell to your FFL, they sell to YOU - but they SHIP it to your FFL to complete the process

Really onceounceload? Total BS? Really? Read the Federal law for yourself:

18 USC 922 (a)(5):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

§ 922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

Notice the word that I highlighted? Total BS?!?

Bmont2409 · Nov 11, 2011

Long gun sales

I would like to ask another question along this line. If I spend the winter Arizona and am here for 6 months and another friend who is also spending 6 months here wants to sell me a shotgun, are we both considered residents of this state since we are here 6 months or more each year? Or if we travel full time in a motorhome how does one determine actual state of residence? I have had several different and conflicting interpretations of what is state of residence. Most people say where you spend more than 6 months a year, others say where your driver's license is from, one police officer said if I called you in the middle of the night where would I find you. I said you may find me in any state as I just have a cell phone and no local land line.

Birch Knoll · Nov 11, 2011

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#state-residency

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.
[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.
[27 CFR 478.11]

Sam1911 · Nov 12, 2011

[Man, if we could discuss this without the righteous indignation and paper thin skins, that would be really nice... disagree if you think you should, but do so as with a friend.]

hermannr · Nov 12, 2011

NavyLCDR said:
Nothing confusing about it at all. You deliver or transfer a rifle or shotgun knowingly to a person who is not a resident of the same state as you are, you violate 18 USC (a)(5) and commit a Federal felony.

When the purchaser transports that rifle or shotgun back into his home state, they violate 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and commit a separate Federal felony.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

According to 18 USC 922 (b)(3) an FFL can transfer a handgun to a person with residency in the same state as the FFL, and they can transfer shotguns and rifles to residents of just about any other state, given that both states' law will allow the transaction.

The three biggest sources of incorrect information regarding firearms laws are law enforcement officers, CCW instructors, and gun store personnel. At least from what we see on these forums.

Hej Navy!

Check out HR58

CollinLeon · Nov 12, 2011

So, you can rent a firearm to a person in another state and not have to go through an FFL? Interesting... So, all we have to do instead of giving the other party a "bill of sale" would be to give them a "rental agreement"...

Maybe structure it as a 99 year rental with the provision that upon the end of the rental, if the owner of the firearm is no longer alive, the renter has the option to either return the firearm to the estate of the owner or he must have the firearm legally transferred into his name via an FFL.

Maybe structure it so that the *non-refundable* deposit that you put down for the rental is the same amount that you would charge someone locally who was buying the firearm and then $0.01 per year rental with an option to pay for a 100 year rental up front...

Just gotta be creative, right?

dogtown tom · Nov 12, 2011

CollinLeon So, you can rent a firearm to a person in another state and not have to go through an FFL? Interesting... So, all we have to do instead of giving the other party a "bill of sale" would be to give them a "rental agreement"...

Maybe structure it as a 99 year rental with the provision that upon the end of the rental, if the owner of the firearm is no longer alive, the renter has the option to either return the firearm to the estate of the owner or he must have the firearm legally transferred into his name via an FFL.

Maybe structure it so that the *non-refundable* deposit that you put down for the rental is the same amount that you would charge someone locally who was buying the firearm and then $0.01 per year rental with an option to pay for a 100 year rental up front...

Just gotta be creative, right?

You didn't read the law. :scrutiny:

What you propose above is a felony and federal law is pretty darn clear that it is.

oneounceload · Nov 12, 2011

for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, t

OK <deleted> then how do all these folks sell guns - they do not do background checks, they have no idea...........yet they sell guns guns all day long

really..............

BK · Nov 12, 2011

I've sold a bunch of guns to people that do not live in my state. I normally just mail or ship them into the state where they live. Sometimes they come here and just get it from me. It's all good, my license helps me do this.

Selling gun cross State lines

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