my FFL may not understand pistol ownership (PA)

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Prophet

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I was gifted a handgun by a family member after I turned 18 (I'm currently 19). I eventually decided I had little use for it, so I found someone who was willing to buy it. I had already done my research on transfers under 21 in PA and found that there was no law stating that an FFL may not transfer from someone under the age of 21, only to, and as such I should be allowed to transfer the firearm to someone over 21, which my buyer was. The only stipulation would be if the buyer's PICS check failed, the FFL would have to retain the pistol until I found a legit buyer. I wasn't worried about this because my buyer had a LTCF.

Upon calling the FFL I explained the situation to him, and he insisted that not only could you not sell a pistol through an FFL between the ages of 18-21, but you could not even OWN one and that a parent would have to handle the transfer. I went round and about with him (albeit respectfully), tried to inform him that it was perfectly legal to possess a handgun between the ages of 18 and 21 if the firearm had been gifted to you, etc. and finally decided to humor him at my Dad's expense, whom I had to run all the way out there with me to do the transfer. I had intended not to mention anything about our phone conversation but when I arrived, the FFL asked if I was the person who'd called earlier. I said yes, and he asked who told me that I could own a pistol under 21. I told him no one did, that I had done my own research. He asked me where I did this research and I told him through pro-rkba sites on the internet, at which point he laughed and said, "you're not even smart enough to own a gun." At this point I left things go because I didn't want my buyer arriving to a spectacle. My Dad asked a few questions and the FFL answered them. He basically told my Dad that he could be charged with endangerment for allowing anyone under 21 in his household to handle a firearm unsupervised, even if the person was of or above the age of 18. I just bit my tongue and awaited the arrival of my buyer.

My buyer arrived. The transfer was made. We all shook hands and left.

I intend to take some paperwork to the FFL so that he may be better educated on the subject. I took this issue to the PAFOA boards and some good folks there pointed me to the laws regarding the issue. What I'm looking for now is supporting information I can point to for leverage so it's not just me standing there pointing at the laws and trying to explain them to him. I'm not really sure what exactly I'm looking for; court cases, legal or pro-rkba documentation, lawyers opinions, etc. or perhaps suggestions as to how to explain the laws to him in a such a way that he cannot claim I am misinterpreting the laws.

The reasons I intend to discuss this issue with the FFL are multiple; for one, he's a relatively popular FFL in the immediate area. If he is spreading misinformation around he is doing nothing to help legal gunowners in my area.
Secondly, the FFL was recently elected to a government position that he will be assuming shortly. I've been a member of the Tea Party movement since it's inception, and as such I feel that it is the electorate's responsibility to hold it's officials accountable. Obviously no one has tried to set the record straight with this FFL, so why shouldn't I? I feel that he should understand that if he resorts to insulting his constituents intelligence and acting as if he is above being corrected by them, he will not remain in an elected position for long (disclaimer; obviously this isn't the case in larger-scale elections but, in this area, local politicians who treat their electorate like scum aren't tolerated for long).

I've already contacted my attorney general's office for an opinion, as well as the NRA. I'm going to contact my state rep for copies of the laws pertaining to the topic as recommended by the good folks at PAFOA.

Any suggestions, criticisms, materials, and discussion are welcome within the scope of High Road rules.

Thanks!
 
Sounds like the guy is just an arrogant jerk who's never going to accept that some 19 year old know his job better than he does, and the best course would just be to take all your future business elsewhere.
 
post this up with the idiot's business name/location in the "rate private and retail transactions" section.

I have family in PA, if this clown is in their area, I'll warn them off ... making up the law is not acceptable, it is bad enough to deal with nonsense infringements, some moron adding them in unchecked is NOT OK
 
Hi Prophet,

There is a book that the FFL should have in his shop, but he will have to blow the dust off of it. It's called the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. Also available here:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

On page 8, you will find 18 USC 922 (b)(3) which prohibits an FFL, and an FFL only from transferring a handgun to a person <21 years old. Now, if you look on pages 14-15 you will find 18 USC 922 (x) which applies to transfers of handguns by joe citizens, non-FFLs. Notice subparagraph (5) on page 15 which defines juvenile as a person <18 years old.

That is the Federal law that makes it perfectly legal (not prohibited) to receive a handgun by any legal means from a private party if you are >18 years old - purchase or gift. The other party must be a same state resident as you to make the private party transaction legal.

A couple of minutes after breakfast, I'll post your Pennsylvania law.
 
On page 414 of this document:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-2011/2009-30th-edition.pdf

You will find Pennsylvania state law 6110.1 which limits possession of firearms to those >18 years of age. You will not see handguns and rifles listed in separate statutes here.

Also on pages 419-420 you will find Pennsylvania state law 6302 talking about several other items including deadly weapons, cartridges, gunpowder; and limits their sale to those >18 years of age.

Good luck. I doubt you will convince him, though.
 
Call ATF

Calling ATF will do you no good. An FFL has the abosolute right to rufuse to do a transfer. What ever reason, valid or not, he gives is incidental to the absolute right. FIND another FFL.
 
Also, BTW, there is no law prohibiting an FFL from receiving a gun from a prohibited person anyway. It is perfectly legal for an FFL to accept a gun from a convicted Felon for disposition...it is only for the FFL to transfer the gun TO a prohibited person.
 
No question an FFL can refuse.
All the FFl had to do was say " I'm not comfortable doing business with someone under 21".
But either lying or just plain ignorance will be addressed by the ATF.

AFS
 
Sounds like the guy is just an arrogant jerk who's never going to accept that some 19 year old know his job better than he does, and the best course would just be to take all your future business elsewhere.

This is true. The fact that I look younger than 19 (more like 16) probably doesn't help my case much.

post this up with the idiot's business name/location in the "rate private and retail transactions" section.

I have family in PA, if this clown is in their area, I'll warn them off ... making up the law is not acceptable, it is bad enough to deal with nonsense infringements, some moron adding them in unchecked is NOT OK

I thought about this, but the fact of the matter is that this guy will no longer be managing the establishment once he assumes office. There will be a new FFL taking over. I don't know the new guy, but he might not be the sanctimonious type and I'd hate to ruin business for him. I agree, everything is muddled enough without having to deal with the FFL being wrong.

On page 414 of this document:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...th-edition.pdf

You will find Pennsylvania state law 6110.1 which limits possession of firearms to those >18 years of age. You will not see handguns and rifles listed in separate statutes here.

Also on pages 419-420 you will find Pennsylvania state law 6302 talking about several other items including deadly weapons, cartridges, gunpowder; and limits their sale to those >18 years of age.

Good luck. I doubt you will convince him, though.

This really helps. Thanks!

Call the local/regional office of the ATF.
Tell them the story.

They really don't like FFL's spouting nonsense.

AFS

Good suggestion. I'll look up their contact info today and contact them tomorrow.

An FFL has the abosolute right to rufuse to do a transfer. What ever reason, valid or not, he gives is incidental to the absolute right. FIND another FFL.

I understand that the establishment is his and he reserves the right to do whatever he wants. I never contested that. I've already stated above why I intend to attempt to correct him on the issue. My intention is to stop the continual spread of misinformation in my area (he's not the only FFL in my area who's under this misconception, but they're not idiots; just following the lie they've been led to believe by people like this guy) and I'd like to be able to provide them with the proper interpretation of the law if need be.
 
Violate the Law

As long as the FFL is not giving advice or direction that would cause a violation of the law I doubt ATF will take any action. Mybe if they (ATF) received many similar complaints they would take a look. FIND ANOTHER FFL.
 
I have found that FFLs seem to know the rules that apply to them, and not so much the rules for non-FFL holders. Makes sense, as there are so many rules and cases to keep track of. Better to keep it simple and remember what you can't do. Otherwise, you're getting the book out on every transaction.
 
Son, you should thank this fellow. He's made it possible for you to learn an important life lesson early.

You can't fix stupid.
 
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