Hornady Critical Defense

Steve Johnson said:

...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail

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The statement makes no sense at all. I guess he should stick to managing communications confused:) instead of giving legal opinions.

I shoot them and carry them (Critical Defense). They do well in water and in gelatin. Lay an outer layer of pork ribs in front and things change.

I'll never bet on any expanding bullet. Accuracy is still king. Penetration is still queen. Everything else is why we have forums.

I like the critical defense round a carry it in 9mm and 40. I've never had a problem with it functioning in any of my carry guns. I carry the 230 grain xtp hollow points in my g30. Both rounds are accurate and reliable. I like the recoil characteristics of the CD in 40. Cal. I've only shot phone books wrapped in denim and was happy with the results. They exspanded reliably in both 9 and 40.

For the person that said after useing the same bullet reloading his pistol 3 times it shorted. wake up. people have said for years out should not use the same bullet when reloading as it ,any, will shorten. CD ammo is not designed to meet the fbi test. It may do some or all of the "test just fime" but that ain't what it was designed for . Not to shoot water and gel and get perfect results just hunman tissue. It does semm as though it does that as well as other do. All hp will have here good and bad points for someone to pick at so buy the ammo you like and try to be happy with. Not all are whinners but some darn sure do. grow up. There's only about 30+ hp weight and brands to pick from.

smalls said:

I carry it. Gimmick or not, I think the rubber helps it expand. Although I havn't seen evidence, it makes sense, and I've never heard of them NOT expanding. I also like bullets that don't penetrate the whole 12 inches, cause I live in a townhouse that's atattched to other townhouses by just walls. I've shot about 4 boxes of it, and haven't had a single malfunction. It's not a lot, but enough to ensure reliable feeding in my gun.

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^I agree completely. I have 3 boxes of Hornady CD for HD. Test fired it with no problems. I too live in an apartment with neighbors surrounding me on both sides. I don't need to go through walls or anything.. The theory works for me and that's why I have em.

ClickClickD'oh said:

There's a world of difference between these two statements:

"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall."

"...will not shoot through glass, will not shoot through a car door, and will not shoot through a wall."

My Mauser was not designed to shoot deer... does just fine at it.

This sounds like a job for The Box O' Truth. I for one suspect the Hornady ammo will go through glass, car doors and walls just fine.

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Exactly. No handgun round was meant to shoot people through barriers. If you want to shoot people through barriers, use a rifle.

I'm holding out for the Critical Duty line which is sold out everywhere I look.

-Happy Holidays

I've reloaded the XTP bullets in my .44 mag and my .357 mag revolvers, I find they shoot very accurately, mushroom up damned good too. I've shot them through phone books, jugs of water and pine trees. One final thought here, the holes they blew through the pine trees tells me one thing, I sure as hell don't want any of those holes left behind, going through me! They'll do just fine on anything you want shot, and to have it stay shot!

My 1911, wheel guns, SA's and lever actions are all loaded with them, no problems and great performance. I think this is one of those "my best friends neighbor, once heard his uncle tell a story of a guy he knew" type situations.

LD

I've reloaded the XTP bullets in my .44 mag and my .357 mag revolvers, I find they shoot very accurately, mushroom up damned good too. I've shot them through phone books, jugs of water and pine trees. One final thought here, the holes they blew through the pine trees tells me one thing, I sure as hell don't want any of those holes left behind, going through me! They'll do just fine on anything you want shot, and to have it stay shot!

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I have had extremely good results with the XTP. Also, they feed thru my XD well.

It never ceases to amaze me how ammo manufacturers keep coming up with ever better "defense" rounds. But most of it is just hype to sell something "new" for a higher price tag.

Many, many years ago, a fellow with some actual experience (sorry gun rag writers, you can shoot as many blocks of gelatin as you want, but till you start shooting people who are shooting back, you are just blowing hot air) told me the secrets of shooting someone who want's to hurt you.

1. "Hit the, (politically correct version follows) female parent fornicator.
2. "Keep shooting (another politically correct version) the born out of wedlock
person until they can't get up".

Now this fellow has been gone for some years, but he was around a lot longer than those who were trying to shoot him, so I figure he knew what he was talking about.

Sound like the top sheriff from florida back around '86. Said on tv , stop shoot when your gun goes click. back then revolvers and single stack gun out at 6 and 10 rounds too. Reality today. Stop shooting when there is not fight in the bg anymore. OR some da will work hard to fry your butt and if he they don't is because you spent your bank account on good help and will be gone for many years. HA. You remenber back when most sheriff officers still carried 357mags and .44 mags or 1911 single stacks and could shoot them. Before the days of collage educated leos that don't hunt and are not gun guys. Now up to they have 20 round mags and don't shoot nearly as well on a whole!!

Before the days of collage educated leos that don't hunt and are not gun guys.

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You're right. We should have people who are as literate and educated as public education will make them and who have no legal training.

I honestly don't know where this myth comes from that LEOs these days are so much less competent. We're constantly on these boards pounding that we need to carry reloads, because "nobody has ever complained about having too much ammo." But when police departments follow that same rule they're ninnies? Double Standard much?

I've shot CD in 9mm and 45Auto. No failures of any kind. I really like the low recoil and flash in the 45. I figure 185g is plenty and the tests show good penetration.

In 9mm I like them a bit less. I think 115g a bit light. I like the new Critical Duty specs better.

I have minor hearing loss, so I keep a pair of amplified muffs by the bed. For indoors, though, the CD seems to be to be quieter than other loads and that's a plus, so the CD gets the nod for the indoor guns, but while outdoors I carry heaver loads in both calibers.

I honestly don't know where this myth comes from that LEOs these days are so much less competent.

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Here in Northern Colorado the LEOs are very well trained with their firearms.

It opens up outa my 38 Special derringer for those concerned about short barrel performance.

hardluk1 said:

Sound like the top sheriff from florida back around '86. Said on tv , stop shoot when your gun goes click. back then revolvers and single stack gun out at 6 and 10 rounds too. Reality today. Stop shooting when there is not fight in the bg anymore. OR some da will work hard to fry your butt and if he they don't is because you spent your bank account on good help and will be gone for many years. HA. You remenber back when most sheriff officers still carried 357mags and .44 mags or 1911 single stacks and could shoot them. Before the days of collage educated leos that don't hunt and are not gun guys. Now up to they have 20 round mags and don't shoot nearly as well on a whole!!

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I can't speak for your LEO's in NC, but here in Indiana the switch to high capacity weapons had nothing to do with Officer accuracy, it was a direct response to the scenario of a suspect with a high capacity weapon or multiple armed suspects. Robberies, carjackings, and home invasions frequently will have 3+ suspects, all with high capacity weapons, so for the LEO to carry a 6 shot wheel gun is suicide.

lawdog You still have the greatet majority of officers today that are not firearms people and do to cut backs in ammo and training range time they are not as good a shooter over all as guys with semi 25 years ago. Atleast in larger rural county's. I still go shooting at the sheriff range back home and get to catchup. Now this is a mere 1300 person departmen. I get to see targets from quals 20 years ago,10 year and today. It ain't as good no matter what you shoot, revolver or semi-auto. Most of the officer that worked in the outer county just wanted the range of and the harder hitting mags as long as the sheriff dept would let them. They also had AR's along with there shotguns back in the early 70's do to the drug smuggeling. So under guned was not an issue. Where i live now, small county country ,these guys don't get enought range time or ammo and low pay means not much practice and they really don't have any quality training area. No public range around here ether. County next to use wanted to build a great range for several counties to use. Public whinned so much, no range now. Thats a very real problem for officers to train to just a minimum level.

jmstevens2 writes:

Is that your opinion, or a fact? Though anectdodal, the post above seems to disagree. As does the Buick he tried it on.

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Adequate penetration performance in flesh AFTER passing through a barrier is THE ISSUE with Hornady Critical Defense.

The soft rubber plug can cause the bullet to expand when it encounters a barrier. The expansion BEFORE it strikes flesh causes it to penetrate less in flesh than a common well-designed JHP bullet that does not expand when it encounters a barrier.

hardluk1, im the one who said that i had bullet setback after rechambering the same round.

so you are telling me that when you go to the range with your carry gun you drop the mag, eject the round in the chamber and throw it away? its funny that ive never had a problem with any other type or brand of ammo no matter the caliber. ive only had this problem with the CD in .380 and .40.

i practice a lot with my carry guns so the self defense ammo i carry does get rechambered a few times before i shoot it at the end of the year.

I conducted side by side tests of Hydra-Shoks and Critical Defense 38's out of a Taurus M-85 2" barrel. I use the entirely scientific test media of a barrel of water. My results were 50% of the Hydra-Shoks expanded and all of the Critical Defense expanded. So if I am ever shooting water the Critical Defense gets the nod.

Actually I figure any expansion from a 38 snubby is unlikely with any ammo so Critical Defense gets the nod for my snubbie.

I've shot this ammo in .380, 9mm, and 45 ACP. No problems at all, fed very well and was very accurate. I've chambered the same round multiple times in my 380 and 45 and have had zero set back issues. The 9mm ammo is pretty much back up ammo that I got a good deal on, but it also shot very well. I like the idea of the rubber plug forcing the hollow point to expand. As time goes on, I believe these rounds will get even better. The price also is on par or cheaper than most other hollow points. I usually recommend trying this round when a gun is jamming on other hollow points. I wouldn't recommend this ammo on zombies though, they have a far superior Z-Max round for that.

Shawn Dodson said:

writes: Adequate penetration performance in flesh AFTER passing through a barrier is THE ISSUE with Hornady Critical Defense.

The soft rubber plug can cause the bullet to expand when it encounters a barrier. The expansion BEFORE it strikes flesh causes it to penetrate less in flesh than a common well-designed JHP bullet that does not expand when it encounters a barrier.

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You still didn't answer the question.

Before the days of collage educated leos that don't hunt and are not gun guys.

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My dad's cousin has a college degree, served eight years in the navy as a submariner, and was a State Trooper in the mountains of NC. I'll never forget his answer when I asked why he transferred down east. "They told me the locals didn't like me. They thought I was making fun of them by using big words."

Oh and I have personally seen him take a deer at 125 yards with a good old fashioned 30-30.

But, back on topic. I have had issues with critical defense ammo in .380. A few bullets would not fire regardless of which gun they were loaded in. It wasn't until my friend mentioned that he was an armorer and range officer for a PD that they said they would replace the ammo free of charge and without charging shipping.

The answer is Hornady's marketing of Critical Defense to the general public versus law enforcement.

Critical Defense is specialty ammunition designed to expand after passing through heavy clothing. That’s it.

Critical Defense doesn’t perform well when other common barrier materials are encountered. That’s the reason why Steve Johnson, Hornady’s Marketing Communications Manager, felt compelled to make the absurd statement that he did.

Critical Defense also doesn’t penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage vitals.

Its penetration performance is adequate for a “best case” situation – that is, penetration will probably be adequate when a defender encounters an unobstructed frontal shot. However if the bullet has to first pass through an arm then the bullet’s total penetration depth can be reduced by as much as 30 percent – a bullet that normally penetrates 12 inches now penetrates less than 9 inches and when you subtract the distance the bullet penetrated through the arm (4-5 inches) that leaves 4-5 inches of penetration potential remaining to penetrate the torso AFTER the bullet exits the arm.

A defender may have to shoot through and arm during a physical struggle, or through an attacker’s raised or outstretched arm when holding/wielding a weapon, or through the arm in a side shot when defending a loved one.

Critical Defense appeals to uninformed consumers and to those who steadfastly believe that “their shooting” will always happen under best case conditions.

jmstevens2 said:

You still didn't answer the question.

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It is Hornady's position that civilians don't need to carry the same ammo as cops. So, the critical defense ammo is not designed to meet FBI standards. That comes from the management of Hornady. If you had read the link on Shawn's page you would know that.

It was also in a 2010 issue of the American Rifleman. They featured the PDX-1 and Critical Defense ammo side by side. They called it two different solutions to the same problem. In other words Winchester was offering FBI grade ammo to the public and Hornady wasn't. They were offering ammo that didn't perform as well because they don't believe we need it.

From Shawn's Link

According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition:

"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail."

-- NRA's American Guardian TV

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Of course this doesn't suprise me coming from Hornady. This is the same company that sells .223 and 5.56 ammo that fails to meet FBI standards for penetration to SWAT teams.

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I had to step away while typing and didn't see Shawn's post.