What got the M9 chosen for the US military?

Gun Stories by Joe Mantegna on the outdoor channel has an episode this year about the M9 story. Pretty much every thing said in this thread was talked about in the story to some degree or another.

Some say behind every story (or rumor) might be a little bit of truth.

ArtU said:

Some say behind every story (or rumor) might be a little bit of truth.

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Some people say the moon landing was staged. Doesn't make it true, or even a little bit true.

I agree with your statement, except that is a conspiracy theory, not a story.

Yes I am splitting hairs, but whatever

Art

M9 passed my test too.

ArtU said:

I agree with your statement, except that is a conspiracy theory, not a story.

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I think a claim that Beretta won because of a secret deal to base missiles in Italy, or because Sig's price was illegally provided to the Beretta USA rep at the last minute, or because test results were falsified is the essence of a conspiracy theory. Look at the GAO report posted earlier in the thread. It explores all these theories. Or stories, if you prefer. And finds no evidence.

IIRC, there was some concern about "plastic" and aluminum (S&W M59) handguns not being as durable as steel handguns.

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The M9 and P226 both passed all the test and both have aluminum frames.

Bear in mind that with all the protests and angry squawking, they reran the tests as a separate project for the next contract.
So the Beretta is not only the M9, it is the M10. It made no sense to mark them that way, though.

The services also wanted a "compact" pistol for concealment by CID investigators and use by "small statured individuals." Beretta did not make anything compact enough and with the big contracts in hand, were not motivated to bring out a new model. So Sig finally made a sale and got the M11 contract with what we know as the P228.

I think that the M11 is a Better Idea. The pistol is no longer a primary weapon used with gun in one hand, sabre in the other, reins in your teeth. As Jeff Cooper said, if you are stuck with a 9mm it had just as well be the smallest and neatest available. (Referring to the H&K PSP/P7, however.) Look at the size of the Beretta versus the 1950 contenders from Colt and S&W and the German Police Pistol selections from Walther, Sig-Sauer, and H&K in the 1970s. Those are big enough holster guns to hump around.

But they didn't ask me.

I am sure the Beretta got the contract because of the ambi safety/decocker on top of passing all the tests. If I am correct the military is very afraid of accidental discharges and the Beretta can be loaded/slide cycled with the safety on (unlike the 1911). That sounds very safe for a backup handgun to reduce accidental discharges for the average military folks and probably a lot of police officers. I have read that people have excellant reliability with the Beretta too. Chrome lined barrels, pretty good finish. Hammer to put your thumb on when holstering. Sounds like a good design.

If you actually read that GAO report, you can see that the Beretta had MRBS numbers way higher than the S&W, the 1911, and (especially) the H&K; the only one with better numbers was the Sig, and that one had more trouble in the mud test.

Those numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, however, because as the report points out, there weren't large enough numbers of each pistol being fired, so the data can't be considered statistically significant.

That document is pretty in depth and definitve. A lot of people really ought to read it, rather than just keep repeating an opinion they like.

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That's right. People keep repeating whatever reason they like to have in their mind, and totally missed the link I posted...

I am sure the Beretta got the contract because of the ...

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There is another "assumption"

the sigs passed all the tests. Basicly the United
States was blackmailed by the
italian govt. either go with the beretta or get the bases out of italy

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Once again - as others stated above - another unverified report that no one can ever verify. But it sure sounds good, huh... Great story to repeat for people who hate the gun.... (because it replaced the 1911, Sig wasn't chosen, etc)

I'm sure there will be others who comment and never bother to read that PDF link I posted...

Granted - one can't believe everything told to us by the big G - but in this case, it's all we have. And, it actually has FACTS in it, unlike everyone's repeated story that's been passed down to them.

Also, stories of broken slides that happened in events 25+ years ago are the other beloved groups of stories told over and over by gun store commandos who believe they know everything. That was 25 years ago. No one is being hit in the face with mass quantity of Beretta slides now. So, to use that as your justification for not liking the Beretta 92 is ridiculous.

But, that's the "other" series of ridiculous stories that get repeated over and over as well...

Anyway... here it is again: http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf

Read it

the slidescracked because of overpressured ammo

The slides cracked because of improper material on the early, italian production runs, which led to the "big head hammer pin." There is a GAO report on that too. Current slide life is somewhere around 35k rounds, which far exceeds the 5k in the requirement document.

There are actually some guys at 60k+ on their 92s.

If you change the recoil spring every 3k rounds (5k is the recommended #), the trigger return spring every 5k, and the locking block every 15k (20k is the recommended #), the gun will go a long, long time...

some background / conspiracy theories here

http://coolgunsite.com/m9vs1911/m9vsm1911.htm

good reference articles linked here, including GAO reports responding to protests of losers in the bidding / trials process. http://olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_pistol_m9.php

There are actually some guys at 60k+ on their 92s.

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35k is an average. There are also some people with 50-60 years on a light bulb.

Jim Watson brings up an interesting point. The M9 specification was explicitly for a high-capacity gun, which is an inherently bulky proposition. There's a sound case for a smaller piece like a P225 or S&W Model 39 - a gun optimized for daily carry.

Main reason is politics.

Both, Beretta and SIG passed all the trials.
FNH, H&K, S&W, Star, Steyr and Walther failed to pass all the trials.
Glock was never entered into the trials.

35k is an average. There are also some people with 50-60 years on a light bulb.

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Actually - of the ones I have seen - with locking block changes every 15-20k (15k being preferable), I'm seeing frame breaks (by one of the rails ) around 50-60k -- not the slide breaking. These are civilian Berettas that are actually cared for - not military models where maintenance isn't done until something actually breaks.

However, 90%+ of people will never put that many rounds thru their gun...

Jim Watson brings up an interesting point. The M9 specification was explicitly for a high-capacity gun, which is an inherently bulky proposition. There's a sound case for a smaller piece like a P225 or S&W Model 39 - a gun optimized for daily carry.

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The M9 is used primarily as either a garrison duty weapon, or a backup combat weapon, both roles which are best filled by a full size pistol. Concealed or open belt carry is not a consideration. The only thing that might make a smaller weapon useful is for people with smaller hands.

The P228/M11 is already issued to soldiers who carry in plain clothes, such as military intelligence. I cannot see a pistol with no manual safety ever being issued to regular troops though. Unfortunately, the average soldier is not by any means a firearms expert and there would be far more negligent discharges than there are now (which is quite a few) if there were no manual safety. I'm not trying to disparage soldiers (I am one), but most just aren't safe enough to be trusted with a gun like a Glock or Sig on a daily basis.

I personally dislike the M9 because I have small hands, but it is as close to private-proof as a handgun can get. And that's an important factor.

50,000 rounds of 9mmP is going to cost you about $10,000 at current prices. If you can afford that much ammo the pistol's cost is pretty much a rounding error in the ammo price.

BSW

Is it doctrine to carry the M9 loaded, decocked and locked, then?
You can't have it cocked and locked like a 1911.
If you load and decock, then return the lever to neutral for a straight DA start, you are not operationally different from a Sig Sauer.
From the little I have shot one, you are highly likely to engage the safety as you rack the slide whether you want to decock and safe or not.

Is it doctrine to carry the M9 loaded, decocked and locked, then?

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It depends on what you're doing. Combat missions outside the wire: loaded chamber, de-cocked, safety on. Anything else (including on duty as a garrison MP): empty chamber, loaded magazine, safety on. I've still personally seen multiple NDs into clearing barrels, the aftermath of an ND inside a soldier's RLB(a shipping container turned into a two-man room), and ND into a vehicle radio. Luckily, no one was hurt in the incidents I've seen. That's not always the case.

As far as how solder are trained to operate the weapon? Most aren't trained at all.

I have read extensivly about this test and the conspiriacy theories but one of the always missed issues in the overall cost of each gun was that,

Beretta already had a fully functional factory up and running in the United States. It was required Beretta shift later production (years 3 - 5) to a US facility. (my earliest M9 issued to me in 1986 in the USMC was an Italian made gun with M9 markings)

They had aquired the facility at Accokeek Md in the 1970's in order to produce their 951 Jetfires, bobcats and other small pistols and to get around the 1968 GCA.

Sig had no such facility in the US and did not for many years. Thus sig had to include in the bid price the cost of either building or buying an existing facility and tooling it up.

Beretta simply had to tool up for the M9's and had both the staff and administration all set to go.

Jim_Watson said:

Is it doctrine to carry the M9 loaded, decocked and locked, then?
From the little I have shot one, you are highly likely to engage the safety as you rack the slide whether you want to decock and safe or not.

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Aircrews carry with a round chambered and the safety off. Draw- point- shoot.

Aircrews carry with a round chambered and the safety off. Draw- point- shoot.

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Lucky.