Carl N. Brown
Member
We have to deal with the world the way it is, not as it should be, while working if we can to change it.
Arrest NY Laguardia TeaParty Man
- Thread starter Keb
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AirForceShooter
Member
Maybe he is working to change it at great risk to himself.
Let's see who shows up to defend him.
AFS
Let's see who shows up to defend him.
AFS
And thats why I'll never travel to NYC, Chicago, SF, LA, etc. I'm not going anywhere my firearm isn't welcome! Let the libs have it! maybe one day the sheeple that live in these urban cesspools will wake up and throw the socialist out! Until then I'll frequent more gun friendly cities and states!
Quiet
Member
You should add Hawaii to your list.cwl1862 said:
Since per HI laws, you need to register all firearms brought into HI within 72 hours. This includes visitors/non-residents of HI. Possession of an unregistered firearm is a felony.
Also for CA...
If the firearm(s) are unloaded and in a locked container it's CA legal, as long as the firearm(s) is not an "assault weapon" or a NFA firearm (DD, MG, NS,SBR, SBS). You also can't bring in any large capacity (11+ round) magazines into CA.
JRH6856
Member
Utah changed their law. Now, to get a Utah non-resident permit, you must already have a permit in your state of residence. Have to get a Florida non-resident permit.
JRH6856
Member
I'm not so sure about that. Heller is a special case as it applies to DC. DC is a Federal District, not a state, and is governed by Congress. Thus, Heller applies to law made by Congress, i.e. Federal law. It specifically does not apply to state law. I think it will take a separate SCOTUS ruling in a different case to extend the 2A interpretation in Heller to the states. There are several such cases now working their way through the system.
Birch Knoll
Member
That case already happened, in 2010: McDonald v. Chicago.
bushmaster1313
Member
Palmer v DC is the case where a non DC resident got busted for not having a DC permit when permits were not available to non residents. It has been pending a long time
archigos
Member
The national reciprocity law doesn't recognize non-resident permits. If you're in one of the bad counties of NY or any other area of the country that doesn't issue permits, you won't be able to take advantage of the law. I believe this also applies to VT because VT doesn't issue permits, they just recognize the 2nd Amendment (at least in regards to concealed carry).
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
national reciprocity bill. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
archigos
Member
Fair enough. Couldn't remember if the official name was "National Reciprocity Act" or what and I don't know the Senate's number for H.R. 822. It still would be nice for those of us who live in NY and do have permits though, given we currently enjoy no reciprocity.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It seems to be assumed all 'round that NO ONE will get to enjoy the benefits of that bill as it will never become law. But, the fact that residents would be made "second class citizens" vis-a-vis visitors certainly seems to be a glaring problem.
alsaqr
Member
Concealed carry permit reciprocity:
http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html
http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html
JRH6856
Member
That's true. I was only noting that Utah has closed its "loophole". Florida still issues non-res permits regardless of resident permit status. Considering that Florida is a winter destination for many, especially New Yorkers, I'm guessing that is not an accident.
In re Vermont, I wonder if it could be argued that since all residents are "permitted" Consitutionally, individual permits are not required. So if Vermont allows visitors to carry w/o an indivudual permit, Other states should allow Vermonters to do so when visiting.
LemmyCaution
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OT, but I want to point out that you've got this conceptually wrong.
Vermonters are not 'permitted constitutionally' to bear arms. Bearing arms in Vermont is legal (ie.- not prohibited), whether concealed or openly. The constitution affirms this legality of the RKBA. All legislative attempts to make the keeping and bearing of arms illegal (whether or not exemptions are granted in the form of permits) have been shot down by the courts as unconstitutional.
By contrast, in almost all other states, the keeping, bearing, or certain manners of those two activities have been made illegal by the legislature, with special waivers called 'permits' available for those who meet the approval of the state and can afford them.
In the three other states in which concealed carry is legal, this is a grant from the legislature, and can be reversed at any time on a simple majority vote. Nothing to sneeze at, but still...
Vermonters look out on the rest of the country and see that what we consider our birthright is mere privilege for the rest of you and are saddened.
JRH6856
Member
I think I understand the concept. FWIW, I don't see a lot of difference between "the Constitution affirms [the] legality..." and "'permitted' Constitutionally". I put permitted in quotes in my original to indicate it is used as analogy in its second definition (resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike).
Yeah, so are we.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I have followed this with interest since Tennesse recognizes all valid out-of-state handgun permits, a person with a valid handgun permit checking a gun in a lock box with the TSA at the regional airport would not raise any red flags. He and his gun would be presumed legal.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Right. But if your plane lands in NY, and you disembark, and your luggage is placed back into your care, the moment you take possession of the case with your pistol in it, you are in felonious possession of an unregistered handgun, according to NYS law.
IF you leave it stored according to FOPA, and you were to immediately lock it in the trunk of your car and depart for some other place, FOPA provides an affirmative defense against the NYS charge. That doesn't (and WON'T) stop NYS from filing the charges and putting you through the legal wringer -- but in the end you will be acquitted because you can invoke FOPA.
If you get in your car and head off for a few days of --- whatever --- in the state of NY, FOPA is of no help at all.
Yoda
Member
But what about the baggage handlers?
OK, this is a hypothetical, because the facts in this case are different.... BUT...
Your airplane is diverted to NYC through no fault of your own, and you are forced to stay overnight in NYC through no fault of your own, and the airline hands you your suitcase with your legally-checked gun in it, and the instant you touch the suitcase, you're guilty of a felony...
So why aren't the ticket agent and baggage handler ALSO guilty? They had no more intention of committing a felony than you, but also no less.
Answers?
- - - Yoda
OK, this is a hypothetical, because the facts in this case are different.... BUT...
Your airplane is diverted to NYC through no fault of your own, and you are forced to stay overnight in NYC through no fault of your own, and the airline hands you your suitcase with your legally-checked gun in it, and the instant you touch the suitcase, you're guilty of a felony...
So why aren't the ticket agent and baggage handler ALSO guilty? They had no more intention of committing a felony than you, but also no less.
Answers?
- - - Yoda
Carl N. Brown
Member
The answer is, malum prohibitum laws do vile and dispicable things to the civil liberties of people who have no criminal intent to harm other persons or their property.
archigos
Member
I'd think that the proper way to handle this is to tell them they need to hold it and place it on the proper connecting flight - refuse to take it. If they try to force it on you, I'd imagine that you should be the one to contact police to inform them that the airline was attempting to coerce you into committing a felony.
It also seems that shipping agents are allowed to handle boxed firearms when it would otherwise be illegal - add to that the fact that firearms on airlines are required to be shipped locked, and I don't think the law views the agents as having possession of the firearm.
Gray Peterson
Member
There is currently a civilian case in the US Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit, called Osterweil v. Bartlett which is attacking non-resident carry ban via the civil area.
parsimonious_instead
Member
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I'm licensed to own handguns in New York State, but since I'm outside of NYC said permit is invalid in all five boroughs. Technically, I'd be bringing an "unregistered handgun for which I don't have a NYC permit" into the boroughs if I flew out of LGA or JFK to another, gun friendly state and back.
Or does the fact that I live in New York State help in any way? Anyone know?
Or does the fact that I live in New York State help in any way? Anyone know?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
FOPA should protect you in exactly the same way it protects someone from PA or VT or wherever else making the same trip.
You are legal at the start of your journey and legal at the end of it, and aren't making the 5 Boroughs a destination. So, if you end up arrested and charged -- which certainly can happen -- once you get to court your lawyer can invoke FOPA and have the charges refuted.
"You can beat the rap, but not the ride."
alsaqr
Member
Exactly. If your plane is diverted to LaGuardia or JFK do not retrieve your luggage if it contains a handgun.
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