Do you ever worry about an assailant wearing body armor?

Gecko!!!

Ragnar Danneskjold said:

I use an AR-15 for home defense mostly because it's the weapon I'm best at.

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An AR-15 in Ann Arbor? I'll keep the Ann Arbor Jokes to myself.

Oh, and no, thugs wearing body armor is just about the last thing I worry about. Thugs never consider the idea of getting shot. If they did, they'd look for a different line of work.

I doubt that anyone doing hot burgleries in my neighborhood would be wearing anything that could even slow down a 1 oz slug.

mljdeckard; It's not about Peircing the Esapi plate. It's about defeating it.

Worry about it? No.

Consider the possibility? Sure.

Take it into consideration and occasionally address it during training, practice & quals? Certainly.

FWIW, of all the suspects I remember being arrested by myself or my partner(s), I can only think of a single instance where a felon was in possession of an old ballistic vest. He wasn't wearing it at the time he was found to be in possession of a pistol and some rifles, but he had it in a bag with some guns and ammo.

What I've often found interesting is that when you run quals using full-size picture threat/non-threat 'targets', more often than not the shooters being run through the quals won't "see" (recognize) the large white ballistic vest being worn on the outside of the clothing being worn by the "armed suspect". They see the weapon, but apparently not the vest. Maybe if it were one of the over-size Level IV vests, done up in khaki or camo, or had gear hanging from it.

Alright I am right by saying that a plate fractures when impacts right? Yes
So 41 pellets impact it all over the place. ( many many fractures ) It is more likely to not work the next time right? again Yes

Is there any slight possibility that 1 of those 41 pellets might just happen by chance to go a little bit high or low and hit the throat, face, gut, pelvis.

I like the idea of putting 164 possible holes down range in a matter of seconds. I believe that makes my odds of surviving a tad bit higher don't you?

fastbolt said:

They see the weapon, but apparently not the vest. Maybe if it were one of the over-size Level IV vests, done up in khaki or camo, or had gear hanging from it.

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Or a "groin protector" lol. Damn things are awkward.

It's also a myth that hitting an armor plate with shotgun or magnum pistol ammo is going to cause some kind of blunt force trauma that will incapacitate the wearer. In many cases it has little to no effect.

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Shotgun, I am not sure, but anything from a .357mag or above will in FACT cause some serious blunt force trauma on a level III wearer. Common injury from even the little 9mm impact on a level III wearer is cracked ribs. All you Newton fans always seem to forget the affects of SPEED of mass in violent deceleration. While yes every action has an equal and opposite reaction (recoil), the energy of mass at speed is also a factor in terminal ballistics. That energy has to go somewhere and a level III vest does very little to stop it. The point of a level IV vest was to stop that by dissipating the energy and not allowing it to reach the wearer. Anyone that says blunt force trauma to a wearer of level III armor is a myth has absolutely NO clue at all. I've known a few that were hit while wearing it and they will ALL attest to the fact that it is no way a myth. All of them equated the feeling that it was like getting hit in the chest by a professional boxer.

As to the OP, I am with another poster here in wondering where you have gotten your facts from. I have not seen any data attesting to the fact that body armor is becoming more "trendy" by bad guys.

So I have no clue, but getting hit in the chest by a boxer is going to incapacitate you? Ok.......

Plus I said PLATE! Not level III...

You guys have been watching too many rambo movies. Keep right on thinkin' you're gonna blast someone back 20 feet when you hit somone in a level IV armor plate with buckshot. LOL.

Enjoy fantasy land!

Alright I am right by saying that a plate fractures when impacts right? Yes
So 41 pellets impact it all over the place. ( many many fractures ) It is more likely to not work the next time right? again Yes

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The plate wouldn't completely fracture all the way through to the back, it would only fracture on the surface. Assuming you're talking about a level IV plate (rated to 30-06 AP) its going to take quite a few shots to break through. Though, in theory subsequent shots will have a better chance at penetrating.

That's assuming we're talking about SAPI plates and other ceramics, if the guy is wearing steel, you're going to be waiting a long time for anything to penetrate. Steel doesn't fracture when it is shot, it either penetrates or it doesn't. You may get a little backface deformation/spall, but that's of little consequence when the wearer is shooting back. Remember that a plate distributes the force of the shot around the whole plate rather than the one point of impact which means less injury to the wearer when compared to soft armor.

Also, considering that I can get 2 level III steel plates rated to stop multiple .308 hits for $160*, I think its at least worth thinking about that an assailant may be wearing some armor. And hell, I may be buying some for myself at that price.

And as for a pellet finding its way around the plate, its definitely possible, but it depends a lot on range and where the center of your pattern is located. At household distances, your pattern is only about the size of a softball. Remember, its a shotgun, not a claymore on a stick



Edit: I think a lot of people here are confused about armor levels. Level I, II, and IIIA are soft armor similar to what police wear. It is made of soft woven threads and is flexible. It catches the rounds, but the energy still transfers to the wearer at the point of impact. Level III, and IV are hard plates (steel and ceramic) which are rated to stop multiple hits of up to .308 and 30-06 AP, respectively. They distribute the force of the impact across the entire plate causing in less injury.




*bulletproofme.com about half way down the page. 8x10" steel plate.

I think the best approach is to consider the possibility, plan for it, and then stop over-thinking it.
Sure it's possible, but the run of the mill crook out to break in a grab a few choice items, or hold you up for your wallet is extremely unlikely to wear armor.
Other than the North Hollywood shootout, I remember an incident in which an armored assailant killed some coworkers, then proceeded to go after other people in their homes (former girlfriends and whoever was home with them, as I recall). One of these potential victims got savvy and armed up, just in time for this nutjob to arrive. They exchanged fire - both lived, the bad guy primarily because of his vest.
These sorts of incidents, however notable, are still fortunately in the minority of encounters with violent criminals.

For the sake of peace and simplicity, I think we can all agree (we definitely all seem to agree, on this at least) that the best route to take when attacked by someone wearing some type of armor, is to simply adjust your aim for a different part of the body that doesn't appear to be armored. The lower torso and/or gut/groin area, the neck, face, or head in general; even the limbs if need be.

Note that many vests/plates end at the wearer's navel. When I was in Iraq in 2006, I was issued extra-large front and rear plates to place in my vest. The front plate extended from just below my collarbone to about a half-inch above my belly-button. I'm 5'11.5", and I weighed about 190lbs at the time and I did not have a gut. Point being that the front plate was not sloped on my chest.

Having said all this, understand that I mean no offense to anyone who wants to further explore the possibility or probability of defeating a vest with a specific weapon or projectile type - by all means, go right ahead. Just don't see the point in arguing or getting heated over blunt-impact theories.

So I have no clue, but getting hit in the chest by a boxer is going to incapacitate you? Ok.......

Plus I said PLATE! Not level III...

You guys have been watching too many rambo movies. Keep right on thinkin' you're gonna blast someone back 20 feet when you hit somone in a level IV armor plate with buckshot. LOL.

Enjoy fantasy land!

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No one here said you would get "knocked back 20 feet" or anything of the sort. Trauma has nothing to do with that. A tightly focused energy wave delivered by the impact of a bullet has to be dissipated throughout the vest AROUND the wearer or that energy wave will in fact cause damage. And as to your comment about getting hit in the chest by a pro boxer, come on over there buddy and I will educate you to the fact that getting hit in the chest by someone that KNOWS how to deliver a punch will indeed incapacitate MOST people. Why do you think they came up with the ceramics over the steel plates? Did you think it was a weight thing? The steel allows the energy to pass through! The ceramics disperse the energy over the full mass of the plate. Men getting hit, even dead center in the plate while wearing level IIIa, were still going to their knees momentarily and incapacitated.

Level IIIa vests are cheap nowadays. Level IV are still pretty much above what any thug would be willing to think about spending.

All I'm saying is that a shotgun is not going to be effective against Level IV armor plates.

We can argue all day about how much damage it will and won't cause to a soft armor wearer, but I don't really care about that; I'm just trying to dissuade people of the notion that level IV armor plates are going to be easily defeated or cause the wearer to be incapacitated by shotgun rounds.

I always shoot the bad guys in the head. They rarely wear armored face masks or helmets............

What if the bad guy was like Darth Vader? Where should I shoot him? Is his helmet bulletproof?

This is why I have Mosin's...

MUSICALGUNNUT45 said:

one of them drew and fired but his bullets where stopped by the suspects body armor.

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Sure, and sometimes people get struck by lightning. Sometimes people win the lottery. And sometimes people die from eating a hamburger. Everything in life is about playing the odds. The risk of some thug wearing body armor--and that changing the outcome of a self-defense encounter with said thug--is freakishly low. And there's really not much you can do about it anyway.

"What if the bad guy was like Darth Vader? Where should I shoot him? Is his helmet bulletproof?"................................................................. In that case, I'd shoot the light sabre out of his hand.........

No. I use ammo that will defeat body armor...............chris3

Ooh, but what if he's a zombie???

THR members don't believe in zombies, therefore they pose no threat to us.

Do I worry about an assailant wearing body armor? Eh where to begin. What kind of armor (level III or level IIIA soft, lever IV plates), how much (just a chest plate or vest or full on combat gear), and in what kind of attack (in public, home invasion etc).

The bottom line here is no I don't really worry too much about it at all, but I have gave it a thought.

Its already been said that no matter what kind of armor you are wearing it still won't make getting shot tickle. Level IIIA should stop almost all common handgun rounds along with lead shotgun slugs and shot. Its still gonna hurt and if the threat hasn't stopped coming i'm still going to be shooting or running away at a high rate of speed one.

Level IV plates are rated to stop a SINGLE hit from a .30-06 AP round. There are some plates that will stop multi hits but last I checked on any they were above requirements for being rated at level IV and therefore only certified by the manufacture. I haven't seen any test data for them being shot with shotgun slugs, buckshot, multi hits with lesser caliber rifle round. It would be interesting to know how much it would take to get thru a standard level IV plate with say 7.62x39 or 7.62 nato.

I guess the "plan" if someone smashes thru the door wearing full body armor is to empty the shotgun into them, if they are still coming go for the .308 saiga, and if that doesn't work hope I can make it to the mosin and that I have softened it up a bit by then. Nah, if they survive the shotgun and are still coming at me i'll probably quickly evaluate an exit route. Full body plates are heavy and moving should be slow so i'd go for run.

Ooh, but what if he's a zombie???

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THR members don't believe in zombies, therefore they pose no threat to us.

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Eh either way Hornady has that covered. http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/zombiemax

Assaulted by a squad of zombie Spetsnaz commandos, all wearing body armor...

Actually, I think there are some who really do think this is going to happen to them...