Kel Tec

From talking to friends who have kel tec's they seem to be nice pistols fr the price. If I were in your shoes I would look at police trade in pistols like the sig on this site for 375 http://www.chestnutridge.com/products/firearms.asp

Welcome to THR.

I'll answer your question with another question. Are you looking at these two Kel Tecs primarily because of price, or primarily for their small size as a potential carry gun?

I got a P11 about a month ago. I have a decent amount of experience with handguns of various types, and I definitely would not recommend the P11 as someone's first handgun. The trigger pull is heavy, long, and not especially easy to deal with(and that critique is from someone who shoots revolvers fairly regularly.) My P11 is also prone to jams from limpwristing, so you have to know what you're doing to prevent that from happening. Short sight radius which makes aiming a bit of a challenge. Small, light pistol that recoils pretty sharply for a 9mm which also isn't the greatest for a newcomer learning to shoot. Mine also required a little do-it-yourself polishing to get it to run reliably. That said, I like my P11 much more than I thought I would. I've tamed the little beast, and actually shoot it well enough for its intended purpose.

I've never shot a PF9, but I'd wager it shares many of the P11's shortcomings.

I'd suggest getting something more along the lines of a Ruger SR9 or S&W M&P9 as a first pistol. Even the compact versions of those pistols would be better choices than the Kel-Tecs. Those do cost more than the Kel-Tecs. The Ruger SR9 isn't too bad pricewise though.

wmcc, If you go to www.cdnnsports.com, and view their catalog you can find the S&W 5903 police trade-ins for $300. It's a full size gun, but aluminum framed, so they're not bad for carry. Holsters are widely available as well because these were common LE guns.

Here's the kicker - the Kel Tec P11 uses a shortened S&W 59 series magazine. Once you're proficient with the full size S&W, and have saved up again you could get a P11 if you feel you need a smaller gun. The P11 will take the full size S&W 59 series mags, but they'll just stick out the bottom.

Alternately, if you want a good new pistol to start with at a moderate price the Smith & Wesson SW9VE Sigma, and Ruger P95 are great choices for right about $300. Both are full size service pistols, but they're polymer framed & relatively light weight. So, they can still be carried fairly easily like the aluminum frame S&W 5906.

If you're willing to buy LE trades or Foreign Surplus here are a few more options that would be easier to start with:
http://www.summitgunbroker.com/Glock_23.html
http://clydearmory.com/smith-wesson-sw99.html
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-83-czech-...rall-good-to-very-good-condition.-p-5703.html
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/.../Used+Smith+&+Wesson+Model+10+38sp+ROUND+BUTT

You do what you want man, and there's no reason to say a Kel-tec isn't a good gun.

However, I don't usually steer beginners to tiny guns. They are less intimidating, because they are small, and cheap, because they are blowback operated, but there are some drawbacks. Smaller guns are harder to aim, because the sights are closer together. They are harder to grip because they have a shorter grip. They are just harder in general to shoot well. As for size for carry, a lot of us, (myself included) carry full-size 1911s. I won't urge you to go that route if you really don't want to, but you could possibly split the difference with something like a mid-size Glock, XD, or M&P. What you shoot well is more important than what is comfortable.

I used to have a P11. It was reliable. I traded up to a more refined pistol. Pros - inexpensive, light, decent sights for a sub compact. Cons - very long heavy trigger, unrefined fit and finish.

The P11 I owned always fired and was reasonably accurate, but it also had the worst trigger of any gun I have ever owned.

The PF9 I traded up to had a better a better trigger than the P11, but when I shot a PM9 I knew it was the way to go because it had a far superior trigger to either of the KT pistols, had much less felt recoil, was more accurate and clearly is a much higher quality pistol.

I realize the PM9 is much more more expensive than the KT pistols, but now you have the option of the CM9 at a more reasonable price and it is basically the same pistol as the PM9.

I own a P-11 & I carry it when I can't carry anything any larger. They are not intended to be range guns but fall more into the carry a lot shoot a little category. I agree with earlier posts that a new shooter would be better off with a larger pistol. Before buying a P-11 I would suggest you go to www.ktog.org & watch the posts in the P-11 sub-forum for a couple of weeks. It will give you an idea about the good & bad of these guns.

If I were you I would be cruising the pawn shops looking at used guns & digging around at the links ugaarguy posted.

If you're shopping for decent prices check galleryofguns.com - go to Gun Genie

I think they have some specials on Kel Tecs.

and cheap, because they are blowback operated

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No Kel-Tec handgun is blowback; The PMR-30 is a hybrid blowback, all others are short recoil.

To the OP-

Kel Tec makes fine handguns, I own 5. But the .32, .380 and 9mm guns are all very lightweight and meant for deep concealment, not range use. I would suggest becoming more familiar with handguns before deciding you want a tiny, featherweight 9mm. The police trade-ins and S&W Sigma are good suggestions. Lots of options in the ~$300 range.

Mach iv, I didn't know that, I had heard somewhere that pretty much all .380s are blowback operated, thanks.

Mach iv, I didn't know that, I had heard somewhere that pretty much all .380s are blowback operated, thanks.

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The larger framed old ones (ie, Beretta Cheeta, Makarov .380's, CZ-83, etc) all were, but they had a frame nearly as big as a 9mm to accommodate that.

The frame on the new polymer pocket .380's isn't strong enough to accommodate a blowback action, so pretty much all of the ones in that class (Keltec P3AT, Ruger LCP, Kahr P380, Taurus TCP, etc) use a traditional short-recoil system.

I have a PF9 and it goes bang reliably, and is my carry piece. However its just not all that much fun to shoot. So if you're looking for CCW then go for the Kel Tec, if you're looking for a range toy or plinker get something larger

The frame on the new polymer pocket .380's isn't strong enough to accommodate a blowback action, so pretty much all of the ones in that class (Keltec P3AT, Ruger LCP, Kahr P380, Taurus TCP, etc) use a traditional short-recoil system.

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It's not frame strength that's the issue; It's weight. There are smallish .380's with cheap zinc frames that are blowback.........but they weigh about 3 times what a P3AT does. The slide on a P3AT is about 3-1/2 ounces, so the strength of spring that would be required for blowback operation would result in a firearm that only people with the very stongest hands could rack the tiny slide.

Think Beretta Tomcat-They're blowback .32's with slightly heavier slides than the P3. There's a reason beretta put tip-up barrels on them.

P3's and the like would also be pretty unpleasant to fire if they were blowback. The Micro Eagle, LWS380, NAA Guardian, etc. are substantially heavier than a P3, and they're no fun at all.

Get a third gen sw. 3913 if you can find one. I foolishly traded mine.

Buy a Browning Buckmark or Ruger Standard .22 pistol.

Then you and your wife can learn to shoot handguns with something enjoyable.
That doesn't bark, bite, cause you both to flinch & miss a lot.
And cost .50 cents a round to shoot.

You can shoot a .22 RF for a fraction of the cost of even the cheapest 9mm practice ammo.
There is no better way for a beginning handgunner to learn to shoot a handgun accurately.

rc

This is a little off topic but I did find a Phoenix Arms hp22 at a pawn shop NIB for $150. That sound like a good deal? are they good guns or what?

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No, they are not good guns. I would avoid anything made by Phoenix, Raven, Lorcin, Davis, Jimenez, Cobra, and RG.

If you need a pistol that can immediately serve in the home & personal defense roles 9mm is going to be the least expensive to practice with of the good defensive rounds. If you're willing to wait on the defensive gun, and want something great to learn on go back to what rcmodel suggested.

I don't know much about the 9 but the 380 will shoot 3 to 4" grp. at 25 feet and is the only 380 of it's size you can run +P ammo thru (per the manuals) mine has well over a grand over ammo thru it with never a miss feed or FTE. running every thing from home loads to 100 grain +P B.B. to the cheapst stuff I can find. round nose hollow points no matter, if the 9 is 1/2 the gun as the 380 it is GREAT........ but then I am new to this started shooting in 1964.

My P11 is my favorite carry. I'm quite accurate with it and love the trigger. Great pocket gun. It's a very smooth DA, long, just right for a pocket gun. It stages just a tad at the end allowing me to shoot 3.5" 25 yard rested groups with it. It shoots high with most ammo. My 115 +P shoots to POA, involves a 115 XTP bullet.

I have over 11K rounds out of mine, mostly light practice ammo, and it's still going strong and accurately. I've owned this gun since 1996. I've liked it from the start, actually. Yes, I shoot DA revolvers. I find the KT smoother than many DAs. This is a carry gun, though. While I'll often put 100 rounds through it in a practice session and find it great fun due to great accuracy from a small firearm, it really is a carry gun, not a range gun. It's an awesome PDW, though.

Do a little more reading and you will see that issues with Kelteks are anything but rare and i've had my own which i sold for a Ruger LC9. As far as i can tell Keltek uses the consumer for QC testing. Yeah, they have good customer service but that's to be expected given teh amount of practice they get. There are numerous used guns that i'd take over a new keltek for the same cost.

I have a P-11, and I like it, but here are a couple thoughts-

If you get a new one, be sure and polish the feed ramp, barrel lug and other critical parts with either 1500 grit wet sandpaper and/or 0000 steel wool and/or polishing compound BEFORE you shoot the thing. This will help make the thing feed properly from the start and not make you go through the 250 jam prone break-in period that leaves some timid souls thinking it's a lousy gun (they then turn around sell it.) It's not hard to do. Takes about 35 minutes, but PLEASE do it.

If you have a strong grip, you CAN shoot the thing accurately, but it takes practice and strength and concentration. Not easy to shoot accurately like other guns, but you can do it. This is due to the small grip area, long trigger pull and heavier recoil. An extra $29 will get you a longer 5900 series magazine which will extend the grip area (must be an original made by S&W - available from Numrich). Add another couple bucks for the grip extension with this mag (from Keltec) and a couple Hogue handall jr. grips and you'll have a gun that feels 500% better in your hands than the factory original. If you you don't want to go through the time and expense, you can just get a stock mag shoe extension from Keltec that will increase your grip area.

My P-11's been very reliable (except for not locking open after the last round), but when you buy one, it's not like you're getting a finished gun (IMHO). You have to do some of these things to get it where it needs to be.

So why bother? Because I now have a 9mm that feels as good in my hand as my $420 Ruger sr9c BUT it's more concealable and holds almost as many rounds. If there's another 9mm available in that small of a package with that much fire power I'm not aware of it.

I haven't altered the long hard trigger pull at this point because I prefer it for safety reasons. Good luck.