357 Sig Can Penetrate Kevlar Vests?

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Plan2Live Where did you hear LEO's carry AP rounds? Not true in my experience with the departments I know. Over penetration is a concern.

As far as the .357 sig going through a Kevlar vest....no I don't think so. The 3A vests are rated up to .44 mag.

Pretty much any rifle cal will go though a vest...both sides.

Seen this done at a training. They took and old vest shot it with .32 on up to a .44...big dent in the clay but thats it. THEN and arrow...went through. Then .223, went though both sides.

RC was joking BTW to make a point.
 
Well, it will penetrate SOME vests. There was a test done recently, I forget by who but it was some agency, cops maybe? They said their vest could not stop a certain round. I can't remember what it was, but I think it was a 9mm load, and it is a common factory round. If you find that article and that load, then get the .357 Sig version of it, well, that would probably do it --to that particular kind of vest. They aren't made all the same.

Russians loaded specials super +P++++... 9mm rounds. Super hot, made to go through vests. Not sure of the bullet composition, sorry, but looks normal. Check Wiki, found it there.

The Sig, it may penetrate SOME lvl 2 vests with FMJ since those vests aren't rated to stop 9mm SMG fire, which is about what a Sig will do, no? With handloads and a long barrel?

Now if you want normal bullets that blow through vests, you may want to look at the 9x25 Dillon. It is like a .357 Sig magnum, uses a 10mm case along with the large primer it takes. Heard of velocities approaching 2000fps. You'll need different bullets though, perhaps those solid copper ones? The others come apart too easy.

I've personally ran a .50 Beowulf through an interceptor vest, put three holes in it and it did some significant damage on the other side. This was with plated Rainier 334gr. bullets, factory loads. Blew my mind. So that means the .500 magnum, it will probably penetrate them too since the ballisitcs are almost identical and so are the bullets.

Same vest, it just flattened 9mm FMJ's, .45's, .40's, but 5.56 M855 zipped on through like a laser (but did nowhere near the damage that Beowulf did!).

I don't need AP abilities for public carry, but I keep an M4 at home and if the SHTF, well, I have my own armor and that M4 and STG58 are sufficient against others. Still, at close range without a plate, that Beowulf has the same effect that a 12ga. would have IF it could penetrate armor. Half inch holes and mushroomed plated bullets nealry an inch in diameter that will certainly go all the way through.

Judging by what that Beowulf does, the 12ga. isn't far off from being able to do it either. Amp up the velocity, reduce projectile weight and diameter making for a bullet with a higher cross sectional density, and BAM! 12ga. AP. You'll probably need a saboted copper slug at about 2000fps --there is stuff on the market for hunters nearly that fast.

Finally, that vest that was tested against the 9mm and failed with that singular round? They don't usually test ALL available ammo against ALL vests. And new stuff is constantly coming out. So they use the NIJ specs, and for lvl3, that is only .44mag and 9mm SMG. So that interceptor vest, it did what it was supposed, and failed at what it wasn't.
 
Where did you hear LEO's carry AP rounds? Not true in my experience with the departments I know. Over penetration is a concern.
It is also a tactical mistake for cops wearing armor to carry ammo that can defeat their own armor. One officer loses his weapon, and everyone's armor is worthless.
 
It is also a tactical mistake for cops wearing armor to carry ammo that can defeat their own armor. One officer loses his weapon, and everyone's armor is worthless.

Exactly. There is a gun present at every contact I make...mine. Also most officers these days carry a .40 cal...I guess someone could make AP ammo for it but I've never heard of any.

But really what is the point of all this?? As I said already ANY rifle round is going through a vest. .223, 30-30 what ever. Vests are NOT hard to defeat.
 
.357 Sig is a neat round, but it is still loaded with normal service-caliber bullets, in the normal service caliber weight and sectional density range and construction, and pushed along at normal service pistol speeds. It's on the fast end of the service caliber range, but it is absolutely not extraordinary. It behaves in basically identical fashion to every other pistol cartridge available.

It's very much more like a rifle cartridge than other pistol cartridges, especially the 45ACP. Case design, pressure and even the way the projectiles are designed to wound are different. The 357 sig uses fast powders where the 45ACP and rifle cartridges use slower powder but there is the main difference. You can get 300 FPS more from 16" barrel with the 357sig compared to a 4" where the 45ACP may get you 100 more than a 5". Bottle neck rounds need more tube by design. A .355 125 gr. FMJ will penetrate much more at 1700
than say 1300 which you typically get with the 357sig from a 3.5" barrel. The cartridge was designed around a 4" tube. IMO, the 357sig is a waste in a barrel less than 4" and really shines in 4.5" + barrels.

EDIT: I should have said the theory behind the way the projectiles wound is different rather than the design of the projectiles to wound.
 
The 357 sig uses fast powders where the 45ACP and rifle cartridges use slower powder
.45 ACP typically uses fast burn rate pistol powder.
.357 SIG typically uses medium burn rate pistol powder.
Rifle cartridges use slower still rifle powder.

That is why the .45 ACP gains so little in a long barrel compared to a .357 SIG.

rc
 
They need AP rounds for penetrating car doors / windows etc. And your right i think anyone should be able to have ap rounds

naw, the construction of AP pistol ammunition is optimized for defeating ballistic vests, which are multi-layered, strong, interwoven fibers, not steel or glass.


Originally Posted by rcmodel
If a .357 SIG is a danger to vests?

They better watch out for .22 WMR.

Velocity & SD penetrates vests.

The .22 Mag Rim-Fire out of a rilfe is going faster then the .357 SIG out of a pistol.

rc

That may be the most ignorant thing i have ever read.......


It's absolutely true, vests are rated to prevent bullets of a given sectional density and speed from penetrating them. A bullet in the same density range and significantly higher speeds than the bullet the vest is rated for, will go through the vest. Same for a bullet of equivalent speed but greatly increased sectional density, which is how the Russian 9x39mm cartridges for the AS VAL and Vintorez rifles work.
 
Some people adhere to the theory that handgun bullets are capable of creating a ballistic pressure wave which can cause remote wounding effects, but personally I think that's absurd.

The .357 Sig is, for all practical purposes, a service-load .357 Magnum autoloader with better designed bullets.
 
The austrian police developed a 80gr solid load to defeat type IIA trauma plates. I do feel that Barnes solids could do very similar but I have not tested this.
Flat shooting, maneable, accurate, hard hitting round good with intermediate barriers and body armor. This round is the US secret service choice.
These rounds make sense in a full size pistol just like the 9mm +P+ loads. It is all about speed.
 
In a compact pistol I carry 40 and 45 cal. It makes more sense. It is all about grain.
In the full size I carry 357 SIG and 9mm +P+. It is all about speed.
the 357SIG is a extremely effective round, and yes! with the "top of the line" hydraulic shock included as most pistols from the 9mm and up.
If body armor is a concern then the SIG can put a nice solid at over 2000 fps making a great option to defeat type IIA body armor. Also the venerable and classic tokarev can shoot 308solids and pierce helmets and armor.
They are also make great pistol/carbine tandems like the 9mm +P+ with light efficient bullets.
Being hit by a 44mag is like being hit by a rolling ball. Even if it doesn't pierce you are going to hurt for a while.
 
I think it would be pretty easy to do if you reload your own ammo I don't know if there is any that you can buy that will penetrate body armor but I really think that I have some 9mm rounds that would have no problem penetrating body armor so I would think .357 sig would be easier to do.
 
Regardless, I believe that the best cartridge for such potential penetration is the 5.7x28mm that fires from the FN Five-seveN pistol. The true steel core jacket penetrating cartridges are sold only to LEO's and the like, but the civilian rounds come closer than most other handgun rounds. Or so I've read.

From what I heard the 5,7x28mm doe not have any special vest penetration abilities (actually is a fairly poor penetrator) except for the special steel core pills that civilians are not allowed to own...you can turn a simple 9mm round in a good vest penetrator with a steel core bullet.....is more the bullet than the cartridge....
 
The 5.7x28mm does penetrate some body armor but you need solid bullets. The issue is not as effective in terms of terminal ballistics due the lack of energy left but they can kill and will kill just like a 22LR will.
The big selling point is: light recoil, intermediate target capabilities with less deflection, can pierce, and high count round accurate due to the light recoil in great part. To be honest it is good but not that great. with the 357 sig you have an actual bad ass round that was specifically dedicated to mimic several 357 mag. loads in a small from factor with reliable feeding of the bottle neck design. Same principal to the tokarev that is a classic but obviously more modest (older) design. Also regarding the 9mm and why is an excellent defense round. It can be pumped safely. In fact the russians applied same original principles and developed a stronger case with a solid core called Grach (or something like that) this is very effective defeating body armor as well as inducing massive shock and because these are light cores the accuracy is very good. Special forces in Russia and others in the region use this round still. Israely commandos and special police also pumped up the 9mm with the 80gr solid pills.
 
See the "Performance Standards" for vests described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_proof_vests

Type IIIA is listed as the level required for .357 Sig and .44 Mag rounds.

It depends on the bullet used. That chart says Type II is sufficient for .357 Magnum, but if you use FMJ bullets they'll blow right thru Type II and maybe IIIA.

But if you really want a penetrator, use 7.62 Tokarev with surplus FMJ ammo (steel jackets.) It will defeat Type IIIA armor and maybe Type III. Or pull some Tokarev bullets and load them up in .30 Carbine brass (there are several pistols chambered in .30 Carbine, and .30 Carbine is a lot higher-energy round than the Tokarev)

Why are we discussing this?
 
Don't know but no pistol round will get the type IIIA armor.
We had that in the service and can take a dragunov or nato fmj round. It will take you to the ground but it is really hardcore stuff. Not for pistols.
 
I may be off by one level. That Tokarev round is pretty fierce though, not a huge amount of energy but it's like an icepick.

Are you talking about type III and IIIA with trauma plates or without?
 
The big selling point is: light recoil, intermediate target capabilities with less deflection, can pierce, and high count round accurate due to the light recoil in great part. To be honest it is good but not that great. with the 357 sig you have an actual bad ass round that was specifically dedicated to mimic several 357 mag. loads in a small from factor with reliable feeding of the bottle neck design. Same principal to the tokarev that is a classic but obviously more modest (older) design. Also regarding the 9mm and why is an excellent defense round. It can be pumped safely. In fact the russians applied same original principles and developed a stronger case with a solid core called Grach (or something like that) this is very effective defeating body armor as well as inducing massive shock and because these are light cores the accuracy is very good. Special forces in Russia and others in the region use this round still. Israely commandos and special police also pumped up the 9mm with the 80gr solid pills.
Yep, the formula for defeating armor is pretty simple. Velocity and projectile rigidity are the key ingredients.

There is the THV (tres haute vitesse) round in 9mm of Belgian origin and the Russians have the 9mm 7N21 and 7N31 AP rounds (besides the 7.62 Tokarev) that features a sub-caliber hardened steel penetrator and has the ability to defeat a fair amount (5-7mm) of armor plate at range.

The Swedes have the 9x19 ptr m/39b that has a very heavy steel jacket and at 1350 fps will defeat 50 layers of Aramid, 8 inches of hardwood and 3" of brick according to the Swedes.

When it comes to armor: speed kills.
 
Don't worry. My friend took .45auto slug form about 10 yards. That resulted in complete knockdown with pretty good contusion and couple of cracked ribs:eek:. It is unlikely that BG is going to return fire even if he wears bullet-resistant vest.:scrutiny:
 
I don't know but every single barnes product I have used and seen excels in terminal performance. Send them a note and see what they say. Double tap also has an excellent 115gr. I only use corbon and double tap. Federals are also good according to reports form others so I have a few boxes of those too.
Whatever one chooses for SD must be shot occasionally to assure reliable function. With the glocks I have no issues, they have been working like the AKs in the carbine department. 100% reliability.
I found this video from corbon/barnes..it should do well just like some of these... like the 9mm +P that is brutal so even better...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWOWXdD80P8
 
Israely commandos and special police also pumped up the 9mm with the 80gr solid pills.

I bought some Federal 95 gr. EFMJ which is chronod' @ 1700 from what length barrel I'm not sure. It was advertised as over-run from an Israli LE or military contract. It was cheap, I use it in my Sub2K. It's +P+ I think. Basically a corbon powerball type setup, HP with soft rubber in the tip for good feeding and I guess a slightly longer bullet with some of it being rubber. Good thing for a 95 gr. .355 bullet.
 
Penetration of body armor is mostly a function of the bullet. It takes a hard bullet designed to resist deformation to penetrate be it 9mm or any other round for that matter. Solid copper pointed bullets, rounds with hardened steel core perpetrators and other armor piercing designs work to varrying success depending upon velocity of the round.

A .357 Sig with a 125gr JHP would no more likely pierce body armor with proper threat level than a .357 mag with a similar bullet.
 
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