What will the Anti's blame for deaths now?

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Well, Flagstaff, Arizona didn't have any homicides in 2011, and it's in one of those "wild west" states where anyone can get and carry a gun with no background check.

The anti's will always push the we hate guns agenda, although they might next go after more marginal sections of the shooting culture such as NFA with smaller support bases where it is easier to manipulate the public. For example:

SBR= concealable assault weapon
SBS= concealable street sweeper
MG= military style bullet hose
DD= high explosive grenade launchers
 
They'll still use lower crime rates as a reason to ban guns. Anti-gun folks will simply say crime is down, so no one needs a gun; and if no one needs one, then they shouldn't be allowed to have one.
I was waiting for this particular response: Thank you DR_B, it is because of the massive sales of guns since the 'Bamster' took office that homicide is down. The real truth is that more guns in circulation means bad guys are thwarted by law abiding citizens more often and after a few close calls, (or news stories like the widowed mother killing an intruder recently), the violent decide to avoid being killed by the peaceful.
 
In case you haven't noticed, practically every civil right enumerated under the bill of rights has been under attack. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance and all that.
Absolutely, I have noticed. Hence my sentiment.

We'd be doing well if we all guarded the rights of others as jealously as we guard our own.
 
mortablunt said:
The anti's will always push the we hate guns agenda, although they might next go after more marginal sections of the shooting culture such as NFA with smaller support bases where it is easier to manipulate the public.

The Antis have long tried to use the divide-and-conquer technique, with some success (look at the former handgun bans in certain cities, and various state's Assault Weapons Bans).

Which is why I get hopping mad :cuss: when I hear of a gun owner disparaging "those guys;" whether "those guys" are dedicated AR (or "other Assault Weapon") shooters, or a 1911/semi-auto handgun shooter, or the Knob Creek crowd, "those guys" have guns that your typical bolt-action rifle/pump-action shotgun hunter doesn't use, and therefore doesn't see a need for.

:banghead:

So they throw "those guys" under the bus at the ballot box. Being one of "those guys," I get a little...passionate...on the subject of gun owner solidarity. :fire:
 
Has it ever ocurred to others that "antis" do actually believe lives will be saved by firearm control and that is their reason for supporting it? Do we really have to demonize them in every way possible, regardless if true or not, just because they hold a different opinion than we do? I want to preserve the 2nd amendment too but I also believe we should be able to do so with a higher level of discourse than is found on AM talk shows. And its been my experience that most pro gun people won't bat an eye to oppose violations of liberties that they personally don't value.
 
If gun control is a sincere but passionate belief system, doesn't that make it a religion, and by extension make gun control laws a violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment?
Code:
AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law
   respecting an establishment of religion,
   or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
   or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
   or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and
      to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 
If gun control is a sincere but passionate belief system, doesn't that make it a religion, and by extension make gun control laws a violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment?

Um, i suppose if one grossly expands the definitions of a "belief system" and of "religion" it could be considered one. Of course then being pro 2nd amendment could be as well. But statements that try and say "gun control is a religion" are nonsenical and are pretty much exactly what i'm talking about.
 
Has it ever ocurred to others that "antis" do actually believe lives will be saved by firearm control and that is their reason for supporting it? Do we really have to demonize them in every way possible, regardless if true or not, just because they hold a different opinion than we do?

Plenty of people still believe in Young Earth Creationism, that the world is flat, and that the large hadron collider will end life as we know it, too. That doesn't mean they should have a seat at the table for discussions about scientific research and policy.

The bottom line is that gun control in America has been an abysmal failure at lowering violent crime by every single objective metric that I'm aware of.

From the standpoint of objective proof, there's fundamentally no reason to believe that gun control is worth pursuing as public policy. I've encountered, and even tried to engage in reasonable discussions with, the small handful of career anti-gun advocates online, and based on their behavior, I don't see a reason to demonize them so much as to pity them for adhering outmoded beliefs rooted in antiquated notions of social engineering.


I want to preserve the 2nd amendment too but I also believe we should be able to do so with a higher level of discourse than is found on AM talk shows.

Agree absolutely. Now, if you can get them to adhere to the same level of discourse, I will be shocked.


And its been my experience that most pro gun people won't bat an eye to oppose violations of liberties that they personally don't value.

Red herring. At least for me, as I'm a big fan of personal liberty in general.
 
Plenty of people still believe in Young Earth Creationism, that the world is flat, and that the large hadron collider will end life as we know it, too. That doesn't mean they should have a seat at the table for discussions about scientific research and policy.

Unlike positions on gun control those are facts. No matter how strong you, i, or anybody else feels about how much, if any, gun control there should be it is ultimately just an opinion. And even if ignorant of facts that still does not mean one has nefarious intentions.

From the standpoint of objective proof, there's fundamentally no reason to believe that gun control is worth pursuing as public policy. I've encountered, and even tried to engage in reasonable discussions with, the small handful of career anti-gun advocates online, and based on their behavior, I don't see a reason to demonize them so much as to pity them for adhering outmoded beliefs rooted in antiquated notions of social engineering.

Anti gun beliefs cover a wide spectrum and include many outside of those who make a career of it. But to be fair the extreme anti gun crowd have never been able to truly test their policies in the full sense in which they want them implemented. They generally pursue gun legislation as steps to further legislation with the ultimate goal of the complete removal of certain types of guns from private ownership. My position is ultimately that liberties, gun rights included, are more important than statistical drops in murder rates so wether or not extreme gun control will work in preventing some murders is not consequential to me. But really neither side looks at data objectively. They both think backwards in the sense that they look for facts to support their position rather than to form it. The truth is there are a facts that don't exactly flatter either position.


Quote:
And its been my experience that most pro gun people won't bat an eye to oppose violations of liberties that they personally don't value.

Red herring. At least for me, as I'm a big fan of personal liberty in general.

Its not a red herring but a commentary on hypocricy from people who love to yell about hypocricy. You may very well believe in the principle of liberty but most others only seem to when its convenient to protecting something tangible they value. I can't really go into detail without violating the board rules on political talkes but if you truly do believe in liberty for all i'm sure i don't need to.
 
Unlike positions on gun control those are facts. No matter how strong you, i, or anybody else feels about how much, if any, gun control there should be it is ultimately just an opinion. And even if ignorant of facts that still does not mean one has nefarious intentions.

Feel free to dig up the CDC-WISQARS info on gun deaths and compare it to the number of firearms owned in this country. The bottom line is that, even assuming a different gun is used for every crime committed, less than 1/10 of 1% of all of the firearms in the United States are ever used to commit a crime.

Now, if one adheres to the opinion that the only acceptable number of gun deaths in a country is zero*, I suppose that's an opinion, but it's one that is certainly not informed by a realistic view of human nature, technology, or the world in general, as even nations with the most stringent gun control laws still have gun crime. (Nevermind the fact that basic economics and criminal surveys have shown that in a situation absent of guns, criminals will simply substitute another weapon in order to victimize citizens, and will grow more brazen in their victimizations, particularly of the infirm and elderly.)


Anti gun beliefs cover a wide spectrum and include many outside of those who make a career of it.

There are many people who are simply not engaged in the debate who lean somewhat anti-gun due to cultural views and the like. There's a fundamental difference between someone who's not a shooter, and is therefore somewhat uncomfortable with guns, and ignorant of the current laws, and someone who's an actual prohibitionist.


But to be fair the extreme anti gun crowd have never been able to truly test their policies in the full sense in which they want them implemented. They generally pursue gun legislation as steps to further legislation with the ultimate goal of the complete removal of certain types of guns from private ownership.

This is dependent on how willing you are to believe their excuses for failed policies. Within the United States, New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts, and California have all experimented with extreme levels of gun control. Internationally, the United Kingdom has gun control that is so utterly strict that the UK Olympic Pistol Team has to travel to France just to conduct a practice session. In Australia, nearly all handguns are prohibited, and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns are banned. In Saddam-era Iraq, the only people allowed to have guns were Ba'ath Party loyalists.

In all of those countries, enforcement of those gun control laws required actions on the part of the government that, hopefully, would not be tolerated in the United States, including registration, confiscation, and private property searches without so much as a warrant.

Oddly enough, all of these countries still had gun violence.

But even if they didn't, you'd have to be willing to set fire to the 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments of the Bill of Rights as well in order to enforce an effective gun control scheme in this country.


My position is ultimately that liberties, gun rights included, are more important than statistical drops in murder rates so wether or not extreme gun control will work in preventing some murders is not consequential to me.

This is the position that I adhere to as well. As a culture, we're willing to put up with avoidable deaths attributable to overconsumption of fats leading to heart attacks. According to the CDC, in 2009, we were willing to tolerate 2.3 million injuries annually related to automobiles, and over 30,000 deaths.

Could we avoid deaths by heart attack (one of the leading killers in the US) by instituting ridiculous controls on who can eat what? Sure.

Just as we could reduce or eliminate the number of traffic deaths and injuries by banning or strictly curtailing access to cars. But the majority of people in this country are willing to tolerate those annual death tolls.


But really neither side looks at data objectively. They both think backwards in the sense that they look for facts to support their position rather than to form it. The truth is there are a facts that don't exactly flatter either position.

You should spend more time at the CDC website. FWIW, there isn't a whole lot of direct evidence that more guns result in less crime, but this country has been experiencing not only a drop in violent crime since the early 1990s, but also a drop in accidental gun deaths as well, and in that time, not only have gun laws become more liberal, gun ownership has skyrocketed.

The bottom line is that education on the safe use of guns has become more pervasive (despite the actions of VPC, Brady Campaign, etc.) and that crime in general has gone down. Despite the protestations of the professional anti-gun activists, liberalization of concealed carry laws has not led to "blood in the streets" or "shootouts over parking spaces."

Furthermore, a 2003 meta-analysis by the CDC found that

The CDC said:
During 2000--2002, the Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force), an independent nonfederal task force, conducted a systematic review of scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of firearms laws in preventing violence, including violent crimes, suicide, and unintentional injury. The following laws were evaluated: bans on specified firearms or ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition, waiting periods for firearm acquisition, firearm registration and licensing of firearm owners, "shall issue" concealed weapon carry laws, child access prevention laws, zero tolerance laws for firearms in schools, and combinations of firearms laws. The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.) This report briefly describes how the reviews were conducted, summarizes the Task Force findings, and provides information regarding needs for future research.

Of course, they do include a disclaimer, but the fact that they were unable to find a connection is quite thought-provoking.

In any event, I have seen no evidence presented by anti-gun activists that their proposals have actually worked to reduce violent crime, and in the countries where stringent gun control has been enacted, it often requires the loss of other civil liberties just to be able to enforce such a law.

What I find peculiar about the anti-gun activists I've spoken to, including the aforementioned Brady Campaigner, is that they refuse to actually come right out and make a public commitment to seeing that the levels of gun control (and other infringements on liberty) be enforced in order to realize their ideals in the real world.


*Interestingly enough, the anti-gun activist and Brady Campaign Board Member I attempted to engage in conversation hewed to this belief, though she would refuse to state just how, exactly, we would achieve that goal, especially since she continually claimed that she "didn't want to take anyone's guns away."
 
In the NAS report "Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review" 2004, this comment was made by the NRC panel on critics of John Lott: "A second group of critics have argued that Lott's results lack credibility because they are inconsistent with various strongly held a priori beliefs or expectations. For example, Zimring and Hawkins (1997:59) argue that "large reductions in violence [due to right-to-carry laws] are quite unlikely because they would be out of proportion to the small scale of change in carrying of firearms that the legislation produced." The committee agrees that it is important for statistic evidence to be consistent with established facts, but there are no such facts about whether right-to-carry laws can have effects of the magnitudes that Lott claims. The beliefs or expectations of Lott's second group of critics are, at best, hypotheses whose truth or falsehood can only be determined empirically."

I read the Zimring and Hawkins article, (Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins, Concealed Handguns: The Counterfeit Deterrent, 7 The Responsive Community 2 (Spring 1997)), and got the impression that their horror of Lott's thesis was because admitting a benefit from private arms would undermine the socially desirable goal of further restricting legal ownership to prevent the proliferation of private arms that the progressives abhor. Another author put it: "Zimring & Hawkins cite recognition of the legitimacy of defensive gun use as an impediment to the socially desirable goal of eliminating private ownership of handguns...." So I don't think my summation is off. Their reaction to Lott is comparable to a true believer's reaction to a blasphemer. What we are often dealing with is a religion based on the tenet that banning symbols through the power of the state will reform the behavior of people, a blind faith in voodoo criminology.
 
Plenty of people still believe in Young Earth Creationism, that the world is flat, and that the large hadron collider will end life as we know it, too.

That's a pretty ****ty thing to say in here considering there are people who believe in the Bible as the true history of Earth and take great offense to that. Way to group Creationism with garbage as you've done. Why not throw werewolves and zombies in there just to be more of a jerk. You'd think a moderator would understand that and not take a dump on others so easily. Yeah, I'm pissed at this place for allowing you to be in control of others conversations while you are a big a-hole yourself. Also, FYI, Creationist scientists do have a seat at the table for discussions about scientific research.

Earth being flat - That is just a silly one to mention.
The Large Hadron Collider - Same thing, silly to mention.
Creationism - Simple. Samples for submission to be dated are accompanied by a date the samples are "expected to be". If radioactive dating methods were absolutely objective and reliable, such information would not be necessary. It's all faith based.....6,000 years or 4.5 billion....Which is your faith in?
Kilauea Iki basalt, Hawaii rock was dated at 1.7–15.3 million years old. This of course is from an eruption that happened in 1959. Yeah, great system to have your faith in. I'll keep my faith in the information from the book that has not failed, unlike mankind.

Way to turn a gun control conversation into a pissing contest on your negative view of Christianity, chief.
 
The brady bunch will never give up, but they did get a little quieter after Starbucks told them and Washington ceasefire to piss off.

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Way to turn a gun control conversation into a pissing contest on your negative view of Christianity, chief.

THR isn't about doing religious discussions, and the only thing I have to say on the topic is that there are plenty of individual Christians as well as Christian sects that don't buy into Young Earth Creationism.

I'm sorry that you read my post and believed it was meant to be an attack on Christianity.
 
Since this has steered off in that direction anyway... I know many Christians who do not believe in "young earth". They understand that not "everything" in the Bible is fact.

Back on topic: The antis will blame believers of "young earth". :D
 
Kilauea Iki basalt, Hawaii rock was dated at 1.7–15.3 million years old. This of course is from an eruption that happened in 1959. Yeah, great system to have your faith in.

I really don't want to get into this mess, but since I'm a geologist by training I just can't let this one pass.

There are several different methods of radiological dating which use different isotopes as their basis. Using an element with an extremely long half life, even if accurate to 99% still gives you tolerances in the millions of years. U235 dating just doesn't have sufficient discrimination for young rock, since the half life is in the billions of years.

Put a grape on your bathroom scale and it will most likely tell you the grape is weightless. Put a bacteria on your powder scale and it will tell you the same. Put a elephant on either one and you will get an answer that's off the scale. You may choose to believe whatever you like about the age of the earth, but you don't do yourself any favors with your chosen example, since it is well within the known tolerances of the system.
 
That's a pretty ****ty thing to say in here considering there are people who believe in the Bible as the true history of Earth and take great offense to that. Way to group Creationism with garbage as you've done. Why not throw werewolves and zombies in there just to be more of a jerk. You'd think a moderator would understand that and not take a dump on others so easily. Yeah, I'm pissed at this place for allowing you to be in control of others conversations while you are a big a-hole yourself. Also, FYI, Creationist scientists do have a seat at the table for discussions about scientific research.

I am a Christian who does not see a conflict between creation, God, and evolution. Is there anything that says God did not set this all into motion all those billions of years ago?
 
^^^^^ That's what I think too. I suppose I should have said that when I responded just specifically to the point about radio dating. I certainly don't want to attack Christianity since I embrace it myself.

Maybe the anti's can start to blame the "fundamentalist religious mindset" for wanting to own guns, since fundamentalism = hate and guns = tools of hate? <----- just to get it back on topic a bit.
 
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