Of the three, Which safe

cbuttre85, I have actually dealt with one fire safe company as a customer of ours. They showed me the fireboard they use, etc. Interesting stuff. They actually tested their models in an industrial oven. So, they just heat it up to temp, whatever that may be for the "average house fire" that they care to use, and see how long it'll stay under around 300°F-350°F inside the safe. They don't take into account cool-down periods in an actual house fire, that I can tell. Maybe other manufacturers do, I dunno...

I'd agree that a high reflectivity would actually be a very smart way to keep your safe cool. There's a significant amount of radiant heat in a house fire, I'd imagine. But short of chrome-plating your safe, I'm not sure what you could do. Some sort of coating, maybe...? But a safe with black paint surely can't help much to reflect some of that radiant heat.

By the way, the Brown safes I mentioned in my last post, those were tested in an actual house fire. I guess they partnered with a fire department doing some training and put a couple safes inside the home before they burned it down to the ground. Now THAT sounds like a good way to test your fire protection. And that's one of the main things that impressed me about what I've read about them. (I swear, I'm not just trying to spout advertising for them...! I'm just really impressed, so far.)

I'd agree that a high reflectivity would actually be a very smart way to keep your safe cool. There's a significant amount of radiant heat in a house fire, I'd imagine.

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A good fire is HOT even if you're flat on the floor. The couple I've been in anyway. That sort of indicates radiant heat, to me anyway.

Like you say, the acid test would be a real live fire. I'm sure the UL standards for fire safes specify the air (convective) temperature <and> radiant heat characteristics in which the safe has to be tested.

Consider just putting the "box" in a room with still air that has been warmed to 1200 degrees externally vs. forced air also externally heated at 1200 degrees vs. the air being warmed in the same room via infrared heater able to also radiate heat to the box to 1200 degrees vs. air heated via gas burner internally to 1200 degrees... Given what little I've picked up over time about IR and heat transfer I'd say the same box would produce 4 different results.

And I bet the manufacturers that say "my safe will withstand 1400 degrees for 60 min" #1 won't specify ramp up / ramp down times and #2 understand how to make their 12 ga sheetrock boxes do just that, by monkeying with the test....

In God we trust, all others bring data.

In God we trust, all others bring data.

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THIS! Unless I can validate their testing methods and verify their data is sound, it's hard not to remain skeptical.

This is why UL exists, and stands as the benchmark for safe testing (and all sorts of other testing). They are a third party that tests safes to worst case scenarios.

The problem is, there is no gun safe that carries a UL fire rating, and only a few that carry a UL burglary rating. I'm sure there's a good reason.

MrSpiffy

What most of us are buying is a deterant or time, because there has not yet been invented the safe that cannot be breached.

I agree that it is a real eye opener once you start looking into what is out there on the market. So many claims and not an "industry standard" to speak of so it is definately caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) when making a purchase. Personally I have done lots of research and will be making a purchase of a product made in the USA. That alone narrows the field down to a few. It is amazing the amount of different so called manufacturers that are really nothing more than stock units from overseas that are rebranded.

I bought a Brown C rated safe

I would recommend a Brown safe. I have a C rated safe with fire cladding. Its going cost allot more the a Costco type 11 Gage safe but in the long run its worth in.

Mrspiffy,a1abdj,cbuttre835 & all:
Thanks for the informative and engaging info and dialogue. The amount of steel, weight and good design clearly takes care of the forced entry, the real issue is fire protection and the $1000 tab that goes with it. Please comment on my summary and proposed solution. Ceramics(sturdy) have a high R value and minimal thermal short circuits and will slow the heating of the interior. Poured insulation (amsec, Brown) have low R values but have a high thermal mass to slow heating. Both accomplish the same task; slowing internal heat rise by opposite physics. Once heated internally both act as ovens and retain heat.
So both protections designs just delay the heat transfer. All of these comment have helped me focus on the problem and a possible solution.
Solution: Buy heavy walled safe with no fire barrier. safe will be in a basement against a 1 ft thick concrete structural wall.
Fire response in the area rated good. Safe will be built into a three sided cubby hole line with two layers or 5/8 fire sheet rock. The safe on four sides would be blanketed with an inexpensive Mylar or foil base insulation blanket. This should provide a significant radiant heat transfer barrier. There is a water pipe in the overhead that will be tapped into with a 155 deg thermal spray head.
In a small fire the area would be wetted down and should provide good protection. In a catastrophic fire, the area would be sprayed down for many minutes before the water supply is cut off due to a structural failure; however, much protection would still be gained given that the fire is put down within a couple of hours.
I would estimate the cost to be less than $150 vs the safe barrier. Would this provide as much protection as the fire protected safes?
What am I missing or do I have flaws in the logic and protection scheme.
Be looking forward to your critiques and ideas. BTW; the Brown web site have some very good info buried in the many links.
thanks cobra

Cobra1 the jury is still out on the ceramic insulation for a gun safe or any safe for that matter.
Just remember if it was truely as great as they make it sound other safe makers would be on the band wagon with it and it would probably be pretty common place as it has been around for some time now.
It might perform similiar to fire rated sheetrock that is industry standard in certain apartments,condo's,and of course gun safes etc. to slow down the spread of fire.
But I am not totally convinced of the ceramic insulator for a safe yet.
The sprinkler set up is a smart move as well as the three sided cubby hole idea.
One thing though and maybe you or others can give me a better understanding of this issue and that is I have read so many times that guys put their safes in a basement.
Well here in Texas basements are pretty much non existent but in 1966 I did live in St.Louis and that particular summer was brutally hot.
I remember just how cool in temperature the basement was and that's where we hung out and played.
But I also remember that it rained really hard for several days and since the basement was below ground there were several inches of water in the basement.
Why would anyone store something as valuable as their gun safe chock full of guns and goods below ground level in a bowl that gets water in it???
Are you having a slab perhaps a foot or so built up to place the safe upon??
I have always wondered about this in these gun safe threads.

This is the one I finally landed on. The memory of saving the extra money has faded, but the satisfaction of buying a US made product with a solid plate door remains. You only have to buy quality once.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11468021

Elkins,are you sure that's an American made safe??
I was under the impression these safes were Chinese.
Also the 59 inch heighth seems to always be associated with Chinese safes as I am told because of something to do with the containerized cargo shipping boxes they are shipped over in by boat.

heeler said:

Elkins,are you sure that's an American made safe??
I was under the impression these safes were Chinese.
Also the 59 inch heighth seems to always be associated with Chinese safes as I am told because of something to do with the containerized cargo shipping boxes they are shipped over in by boat.

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According to the website the Rhino models are made in the USA and Bighorn is the imported line. When I ordered it the company called and told me it takes longer to get a Rhino because they build them as ordered. Bighorns ship faster because they just bring them over by the container load. I'm sure they subcontract them rather than actually build them, but they are very specific about the Rhino models being US production.

When I ordered mine I requested it be built with a dial lock rather than an electronic one and they made the change with no objections. That makes me think they control the building process enough to specify changes. This is from their website:

"Rhino® safes are the country's highest quality gun safes, custom made in America to your exact specifications, with meticulous detailing, patented and exclusive security features, and a limited lifetime warranty."

Ahh.
I had no idea they carried a made here brand.
Is there any differences between the two??

heeler said:

Ahh.
I had no idea they carried a made here brand.
Is there any differences between the two??

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I don't know...I've never seen a Bighorn safe.

I can tell you that my Rhino is exceptionally well built. The door fitting is superb and the boltwork has almost no "slop" at all.

cobra1,

I'd suggest thin aluminum or stainless for a radiant barrier vs. mylar as mylar will melt away. I like your idea.

I have debated on the same kind of deal. I'd like to sprinkle my whole house, then fire is just. not. an. issue. You have a fireman there all the time and it just about won't burn down.

On a new house I"m told it's 1% excess cost to add sprinklers. If you're on "city" water then it's a no brainer. Well water, you'd need an adequate pressure tank / delivery system. Retrofitting, I have no idea. Would suck in a 2 story, really wouldn't be a big deal in a single story house.

that aside, I have wondered about the merits of a three layer body - 2 layers of steel plate with a layer of aluminum sandwiched in - wouldn't that help defend against a torch attack? I've been told (but never tried) it's a lot harder to cut aluminum with a cutting torch because it wicks heat away quickly.

Sturdy talks a good game but I'm skeptical like the other folks here. Might just be marketing, I don't know. You'd need a ridiculously high R value to fight the 1200 degrees of a fire.

Frank a1abdj hit it on the head - UL is a "good thing" as they standardize stuff - and there's a reason a "gun safe" don't carry the UL fire rating and they're all independent...

I'd like to get ahold of their fire safe testing specs... satisfy my idle curiosity.

Would this provide as much protection as the fire protected safes?
What am I missing or do I have flaws in the logic and protection scheme.

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Probably. Basement installations are good because basements rarely burn. If you live in an area where homes burn into the foundation during a fire, it may not survive, but it wouldn't have survived on the first floor either.

Basements are bad if they are not walk outs, because during a fire more water will be pumped into the house than the drains can handle. This will turn your basement into a swimming pool that will flood your safe and its contents.

I had no idea they carried a made here brand.
Is there any differences between the two??

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The company is Rhino Metals, and the Rhino line is the US built version. They are nice for what they are. We never carried them because they were in the same price bracket as the AMSEC BFs, which I thought were a better buy overall.

I did stock the Chinese Bighorns prior to Costco selling them, and they are also well built for the price.

that aside, I have wondered about the merits of a three layer body - 2 layers of steel plate with a layer of aluminum sandwiched in - wouldn't that help defend against a torch attack? I've been told (but never tried) it's a lot harder to cut aluminum with a cutting torch because it wicks heat away quickly.

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Older torch rated safes often did something similar. I have one at the shop that you can clearly see the copper plate laminated between the steel. If you want to see a photo I would be happy to take one the next time I'm at that warehouse.

cbuttre835

Radiate heat transfer is tricky. I have used Mylar coated plastic tubing to protect brake lines and fuel lines from 1800 deg headers on race cars and it works. I don't know the exact makeup of heat blankets I seen on jet and rocket engines but there were not metal and very light weight and flexible. I was thinking of the foil covered fiberglass rolls used on AC ducts.

I'm pretty sure the ceramic used by Sturdy will work well for this reason. It's high R value will transfer heat much more slowly to the inner liner. A heat sink insulator like concrete mix will absorb the heat and slowly get very hot then heat up the inner liner. Now here is the tricky part, fire -1500 deg for 30 minutes then stops. If the ceramic has kept the inner liner from going over 350; game over, it will protect the internal temperature from climbing. It will stop the internal from climbing any further, For the concrete heat sink, after the fire stops, because it has stored the heat it will continue to heat the internal liner after the fire stops possibly past 350.
This is my theory of the heat transfer problem; but as I used to preach one GOOD test is worth a thousand theories or simulations.

This is how Sturdy tests their safes:
http://www.sturdysafe.com/firelinertestcompare.htm

I have minimal familiarity with a foundry, and know some use refractory cement or ceramic wool. I don't remember the outside temperature of the kiln getting too hot to touch. If single walled, the cement/brick is used. If double walled, ceramic wool is used.

To have a better idea: My kitchen oven is ceramic wool and doesn't get hot on the outside.

I presume the goal of insulation is to minimize conductive heat transfer, and both have been proven to do so.

I've always wondered about the pro AMSEC safes having the cement. I wonder how much has to do with structural integrity rather than fire; the cement also being used as reinforcement. Imagine a safe falling through a floor or having a building coming down on it.

I have also wondered if the pro safes use the cement for thicker walls for higher fire ratings. Cement is going to be easier and cheaper if you have 3 foot walls. If you also making a custom vault, pouring cement is faster and cheaper.

Basically I'm saying maybe AMSEC uses cement on the RSC and pro-safes because it is cheaper and easier for all the variety of ways it can be used by AMSEC.

...but I'm just speculating.

My guess is the insulation types between refractory cement and ceramic wool on a RSC is close enough to be equal.

My guess is the insulation types between refractory cement and ceramic wool on a RSC is close enough to be equal.

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Why guess? Why not ask the manufacturers?

The litmus test suggested in the past on this topic has been UL fire ratings, since that represents a known and repeatable test. (Any test that cannot be duplicated by somebody else, somewhere else, is not really a test..) So why not use that as the baseline and see what construction methods have achieved a UL fire rating?

I don't know the exact makeup of heat blankets I seen on jet and rocket engines but there were not metal and very light weight and flexible. I was thinking of the foil covered fiberglass rolls used on AC ducts.

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Didn't think of those. I was thinking in terms of the crinkly thin mylar space safety emergency blankets in first aid kits / survival kits and such. D'oh.

When I hit the lottery, I'll buy up a bunch of safes and devise a real test bed. Y'all should support me by paypal-ing me $100 each to buy lottery tickets with.

Ok, I said I would post what I ended up going with. I purchased a Superior Safe. I went with the Master Series. I found a dealer here in NC, called him up and got what I think is an awesome price. My budget was 2000 to 2500 I am getting the M40 model and price installed in the house is less than 2200, can you say happy camper? I can hardly wait for it to be delivered, oh on a side note because my house is not built on a slab I will have to have my floor reinforced, even with having that done my total cost is still under budget.

Thanks for the update. I'd be interested to know what is involved in installation, and how they transport the safe within the house.

I'd like to install in my utility room, but that means they have to transport over my hardware floors until they reach the room. And I don't want a scratch on my floors.

I did stock the Chinese Bighorns prior to Costco selling them, and they are also well built for the price.

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Glad to hear it. I just got one of them, wasn't expecting a whole lot considering the price point, but was nicely surprised. Fit and finish are excellent, and Rhino was great to deal with during the ordering and shipping process.

The only gotcha I had was that I had to download a manual online to find the default combo so I could get it open!

snakyjake, my floors are laminate, I will let you know how the installation goes, it is a heavy one at 1050 lbs. My house is not built on a slab so I am having the floor supported under the house, I do not wish that thing to cause any damage over time by just sitting there.

While I am here, what is the big deal on this forum with calling a safe an RSC? We all know what we are talking about, and if it were really an issue would not the retail stores, specialty stores, and locksmiths be advertising what they sell as RSC's instead of SAFE's?

Ok, I said I would post what I ended up going with. I purchased a Superior Safe. I went with the Master Series. I found a dealer here in NC, called him up and got what I think is an awesome price. My budget was 2000 to 2500 I am getting the M40 model and price installed in the house is less than 2200, can you say happy camper?

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I've done quite a bit of comparison shopping and Superior seems to be one of the best products in its category. The price you got sounds very good.

As far as the RSC issue, I can understand the difference. My local dealer carries Superior as its low-end RSC line, and then also has Graffunder gun safes. But they sell a lot of business safes in the same showroom and have primarily Securifort for that. HUGE difference in construction, and frankly I'm considering getting a B-rated Securifort for my garage safe. For the money they're really impressive. Basically, if you're looking much above $2500 for a safe you should start considering B-rated safes versus the RSC product. Securifort has a TL30 safe that is quite large and under $5000, which seems to be a bargain for that type of product.

a1abdj's Zykan B-rated safes look to be a tremendous value. I'm still considering one of those, even though shipping to the west coast is a bit expensive.

http://www.zykansafe.com/brategunsafes.html