.44 Special "Frontal Area" vs .45 ACP

You're not going to be undergunned by using a .44 special. Both rounds are good SD rounds.

The meplat has a lot more to do with the size of the perminant wound channel than the original bullet diamiter. This is why hollow points are so effective.

I agree that the meplat is way more important. That's why the 44 caliber Keith bullet is very effective while round nose 45 FMJ isn't. With equivalent bullets though they are essentially the same.

With ALL ELSE being equal (and that really isn't practically possible), a larger bullet makes a larger hole which SHOULD be more effective. A .50 is better than a .475 which is better than a .451 which is better than a .429 which is better than a .40.... How much better, I don't know.

There are so many variables, a .35 caliber could be more effective than a .45 because of velocity, bullet shape, bullet weight. Depending on where it hits, caliber may not make any difference at all.

BluedRevolver said:

Meplat is the same as frontal area, I assume?

I just don't understand how all this affects terminal performance.

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Guess it depends on what you mean by frontal area. Meplat is specifically the flat part on the front of the bullet and doesn't necessarily have much to do with the bullet diameter. Since semi auto pistol bullets have to be able to feed from a magazine the bullet usually has a much smaller meplat compared to a revolver bullet. Hollow point bullets are obviously better since they expand and flatten on impact.

Anyway, in terms of terminal performance. Pointed or round nose bullets have a tendency to push through without doing a whole lot of damage. Semi wad cutters and hollow points tear and rip as the pass through doing more actual damage.

With similar bullets and loads I would expect 44 Special and 45 ACP to have almost identical performance.

Take a round nosed ball type fmj and a truncated cone type fmj to the range and shoot them through paper. You will notice that the round profile will leave a slightly smaller hole in paper. It works similarly in tissue the flat part of a bullet will cut instead of pushing stuff out of the way. that's why hunters have for a long time used SWC and large flat points for game, they cut a bigger path.
Of course this all goes out the window when the bullet expands.

Given the same bullet design, and the same velocity, the terminal "performance" of the bullet with the slightly larger frontal area will be slightly better. But in this case the difference is minimal. For more info, start here:

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/terminal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics

Curious as to "reloading simplicity." I find .45ACP reloading easier and faster than .44 Spl.

Some other factors to consider are the better availability of bullets for the .45 ACP, and the better availability of guns in .45ACP. If you want to go with stout .44 Spl. loads, you'll likely have to get a gun chambered in .44 Mag, and they aren't too easy to carry, especially concealed. Most .44 Spl. revolvers only hold 5 rounds, the bigger guns 6. Most .45s hold a few more than that, which is a lot more "frontal area" downrange. I could go on. But all things considered, the .45 offers a lot more. I have both, but my "main" SD handguns are all .45s. Well, except for my .357, but that's really my wife's.

Come on.
Is it really that important to compare these two? The difference is so miniscule that no one could tell the difference if they were to see someone shot. It isn't like comparing a 22 and a 44/45

I'm embarrassed to say that I don't really understand ... how it would affect a cartridge's terminal performance.

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Don't be embarrassed! No one completely understands the forces in play enough to make a definitive statement -- though many have tried.

"A 9mm may expand, but a .45 won't shrink!" ... unless it's an FMJ in which case it bores right through.

The most important thing is diameter, 'cause big holes do more damage. And sectional density -- because penetration is king! (These are more-or-less contradictory concepts.)

Big and slow with tons of momentum will bore through and kill anything that walks. But since the velocity gets squared in the energy calculation, high velocity bullets destroy tissue far better than slower ones.

The very best bullet ever for most uses is a Keith style heavy SWC...or the old Nyclad SWC-HP lead bullet....or a high-tech bonded-core JHP with specially engineered radial jacket striations for controlled expansion (and a little lead teat in the middle). Or, hell, a huge dead-soft Minié ball that flattens out on impact and will take off a whole arm! Yeah, one of those is best.

But how do you calculate the hydrostatic shock, temporary wound cavity, permanent wound cavity, Taylor Knockout Value, the ability to knock a man down, and the STOPPING POWER? Why did Marshall and Sanow lie ... and who really shot JFK?

When you get it all figured out, let us know, ok? We'll still be here scratching our heads and arguing about it all!

That 'frontal area' given in the other thread was a bit of a made-up number - meplat is the more important one.

The meplat diameter is the flat area at the front of a bullet - it's important because the meplat is what actually does the cutting in tissue - a wider meplat means more tissue disruption.

A generic FMJ round nose bullet has almost no meplat diameter, and as such they tend to penetrate like crazy because they slice cleanly through tissue. A bullet with a larger meplat diameter will disrupt more tissue as it enters the target.

Think of it this way - take a normal decking nail, and hammer it into a 2x4. It cuts a clean little hole. Now take a 3/8" carriage bolt with a flat bottom and hammer it into the same 2x4 - it won't go very far, but the 2x4 will split in half.

The meplat is the working part of the bullet.

The two rounds were designed within a few years of each other. The original loadings had the .45 ACP a bit faster than the .44 Special, but the variation in factory ammunition back then meant the rounds were very close in weight, diameter, and energy.

The .45 ACP in the 1911 had an advantage in speed of reloading and amount of ammunition, it also had the disadvantage of a possible malfunction, while a revolver in .44 special did not have that problem.

Since you are not limited to using vintage loadings, both rounds have excellent self defence rounds available. The reliability of semi-autos has increased in the last century as well. The real question is whether or not you get an excellent platform to launch your SD round, it has to be accurate, and you must be able to use it well. What either bullet does on impact is moot if you have difficulty with draw, hitting your target, or reloading. Get what you want to use, either round will be fine, then practice practice practice.

Don't sweat 11%.

LD

But I want to switch to .44 Special but there's those nagging ideas from others gnawing at me saying ".45 has more frontal area" and "bigger is better" and such.

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The ammo I use in my 45 ACP (230gr golddots) is larger heavier and going about the same velocity pluss there are more of them in my 1911 than my ammo I use in my 44 specials (200gr golddots by Georgia arms) yet even thoug there are only 5 in my 696 I still sleep like a baby on nights that i have the 696 doing nightstand duty.
As Dave said don't sweat it.

My self defense guns measure .355 and .357 in bullet diameter and have a hole in the nose. What matters to ME is they're on me 24/7 and I didn't have to leave 'em home or in the car due to excessive weight or size for my carry. I'm perfectly happy with the performance of .38 Special. Big bullet folks are paranoid or something or just like having 40+ ounces of gun hanging on their belt pulling their pants down. I doubt many of 'em live in the hot, humid south, either.

Run with what makes ya happy and justify it any old way ya want. Won't make me change MY PDW, I can tell ya that. Pocket carry is my MO and I don't leave home without it. Hell, I don't leave it laying around when I'm at home. It's always there. If you're going to rely on a weapon for self defense, you'd better have it when trouble comes a knockin'.

Big bullet folks are paranoid or something or just like having 40+ ounces of gun hanging on their belt pulling their pants down.

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I think my CW45 and Charter Bulldog are both just a touch under 40oz.
together
And Paranoid just what do I have to be afraid of with a 44 or 45 in my pocket. LOL

BluedRevolver said:

In my thread about the .44 Special vs .45 ACP, someone brought up this point

Sure the diameter difference isn't much. However, the significant factor is frontal area. And since the frontal area is a function of the radius squared (area = Pi*r²), a .452 bullet has 11% more frontal area than a .429. Which is a bit more significant.

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Please educate me on the frontal area thing. I'm embarrassed to say that I don't really understand what this is, and how it would affect a cartridge's terminal performance.

What does this 11% difference in frontal area mean for .44 Special vs .45 ACP?

I'm considering switching to .44 Special as my main self defense handgun round as opposed to my .45 ACP for reloading simplicity, but not if .44 Special cannot match or exceed .45 ACP's terminal performance.

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Since I wrote the quoted text, let me comment on it. I was replying to a poster who had said that the .023 difference in diameter between the 44 Special (.429) and the 45 ACP (.452) was insignificant. I just wanted to express the difference more accurately, since the important factor in terms of terminal ballistics is frontal area, not diameter, and frontal area increases a lot faster than you might think.

The effects of frontal area are hard to quantify, but look at the difference in terminal performance of FMJ and expanding bullets to get an idea of its importance.

The 11% difference is a slight plus for the 45 ACP, but I certainly wouldn't base my decision solely on that one plus. There are a lot of other important factors such gun type(revolver or semi?) and ammo availability (SAAMI load, commercial custom or handload?) that are more important.

Would the extra 10 grains and 150 FPS make up for the 11% difference in frontal area, in your opinion?

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Once you start using expanding bullets frontal area becomes a factor of expansion. If both bullets expand to .60" then their frontal area is equal.
if your talking a .451 dia 230gr hard cast SWC @900 VS a .429 dia 240gr hard cast SWC @ 1000fps, I'm going to need to know the exact path of the bullet so I know weather the 11% larger hole is going to work any better than the ~20% deeper hole.

BluedRevolver said:

Well, if I used .44 Special for home and self defense, it would be in my 4" M29. I would probably load up some 240 JHP's or SWCHP's going about 1,000-1,050 FPS, as compared to my .45 ACP loads going about 900 FPS. Would the extra 10 grains and 150 FPS make up for the 11% difference in frontal area, in your opinion?

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I have no idea. That's what I meant by "hard to quantify". If I were using an M29 I'd be quite happy with the load you suggest. If I were using a Charter Arms Bulldog, I suspect that recoil would be a limiting factor, forcing a lighter load. In that case a 45 would probably be better. Like I said, the frontal area advantage is ONE of many factors that should be considered.

Whichever one you will carry more often and can shoot better is the one you should orient on....

Reminscent of my grandfather always saying, "a hit with a thirty-two always beats a miss with a forty-five" and "a thirty-two in your hand is miles better than a forty-five on your horse." (He was a New Mexico rancher)

Actually, I like both the Remington and Speer Lawman .45acp... flat point......makes a nasty hole and really whollops the heck out of the target. And they feed well in my 37 year old Combat Commander.

I don't buy that it doesn't make a difference: it does.

Hunting wise, they both kill.

Here is what I don't get:
The .475 Linebaugh, and .510 Linebaugh are 'only' a little bigger.
Yet folks swear that the little difference makes a huge difference on impact, and killing power. You have to see it to believe it.

Lee Jurras, the guy that championed light fast .44 magnums, killing everything on the planet with a 185 grain .429 bullet, at around 1900 fps, told me that if he had ONE gun only, it would be a .475 Linebaugh, with 420 grain bullets, LFN's, at 950 fps. Why? You have to see the reaction when something gets hit with that to believe it. It's only a '11%' bigger then the .45.

Ross Seyfried has settled back on the .45 Colt 6 shot as his choice.

Don't get me wrong: if .44 Specials were as common as .45's, and components and ammunition the same price, I'd own a .44 Special.

That said, I get the same ballistics using .45 Super as I would from a .429, and with a bigger bullet.

"Well, if I used .44 Special for home and self defense, it would be in my 4" M29. I would probably load up some 240 JHP's or SWCHP's going about 1,000-1,050 FPS, as compared to my .45 ACP loads going about 900 FPS. Would the extra 10 grains and 150 FPS make up for the 11% difference in frontal area, in your opinion? "

To make this easy, I'm going to assume your bullets are full frontal wadcutters, like the Carillo loads, or the Buffalobore .44's for SD:
Wound channel diameter of 1.126" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .429", and a striking velocity of 1050 fps.

Wound channel diameter of 1.017" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 900 fps.

So the short answer is yes, the .44 is going to be more effective.

Here is what I get with .45 Super, and a 230 grain bullet:
Wound channel diameter of 1.243" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps.

Or a 200 grain bullet:
Wound channel diameter of 1.356" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 1200 fps.

Just for fun, I'll run my .475 and .500 loads:

Wound channel diameter of 1.128" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .475", and a striking velocity of 950 fps

Given the effectiveness of this round, the wound channel calculator doesn't do it justice.

Same with the .500 Linebaugh:
Wound channel diameter of 1.211" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .510", and a striking velocity of 950 fps.

To answer your .44 special question:

I find that big .44 240 grain HP at the velocity you mention, or better, 1100 fps, a PERFECT self-defense load. Doesn't recoil a bunch, and hits like a ton of bricks.

That said, it's still not a shotgun, and, you can get shotgun like ballistics out of the .475 and .500 Linebaughs.