SIG: German or US?

It's not as simple as US vs. German. In the early days of US production, the SIGs were excellent guns. This is when the 229 & later the 239 came out. This was the first time the classic P-series guns started having slides that were milled from a solid block of stainless steel. A lot of the frames were made in Germany, and IIRC, all of the small parts were coming from Germany.

Somewhere around 2004, SIG shifted more production stateside. With the arrival of Ron Cohen of Kimber notoriety, some strange quality control issues started to appear with much more regularity. At around this same time, the railed dustcover was introduced and it soon became the standard frame. Not long thereafter, someone thought it would be a good idea for the guns to have a beavertail, which never made much sense to the majority of (then) SIG shooters.

Nowadays you see all kinds of silly, gaudy and unnecessary options on the classic P-series (if we can still call it that). On a positive note, some of the best guns currently coming out of SIG in new Hampshire is their 1911 series.

If I was buying a classic P-series SIG, I would have no reservations about buying an American made model, but I would only buy a pre-rail, pre-beavertail version, and I wouldn't be willing to pay more than $600 for a used specimen in excellent shape.

Only West German classic P-series firearms for me~! That is a 9mm P228 and
a .45 ACP P220A~!

The Kimber guy is the big marking point, diehard fans just don't buy new SIGs anymore, just old ones.

Nonetheless I own P229 dark elite and it is absolutely flawless.

I do think the originals with no rail or beavertail are much better in terms of looks, and balance. Also all the rainbow/equinox/scorpion and other weird variations are pretty tiresome.

The late Mr. Camp was planning on a long term evaluation of the two. Unfortunately, this was one of his later post before passing away.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/LongTerm Observations and ShortTerm Hopes-SIGSauer P220.htm

Nonetheless I own P229 dark elite and it is absolutely flawless

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I have no room to speak on the quality differences between the older and newer Sigs. However, I do own the P229 elite dark as well and it is an excellent pistol.

I just bought a December, 2011-built specimen of the P220 Carry Elite Dark.

This is my first Sig. So far, I am incredibly impressed. The build quality is excellent, the gun is tight as a drum. I shot it for the first time a few days ago, and was easily putting 20 rounds into 3 inches at 15 feet offhand (good for me with a brand-new gun). Not a single problem in 100 rounds of cheap CCI Blazer steel ammo.

Granted, I have no other Sigs to compare it to, but when comparing it to my other handguns, and other handguns I've shot, it's easily one of the nicest pistols I've ever handled.

Mine has the large beavertail (which feels good to me, very similar to my S&W 1911), very bright night sights, ultra-slim Hogue aluminum grips, and the Short Reset Trigger. It handles and shoots exceptionally.

If this gun is inferior in any way to Sigs of previous generations, then I'd be very surprised.

They both have their advantages over the other.

I own more than a few of each and they all have been 100 percent flawless.

The classic German P seried SIGs come with a folded carbon steel slide which is about 2 ounces lighter that the modern milled stainless steel slide. However the stainless steel milled slide can withstand the pressures of the .40/.357 SIG rounds, requires less maintenance, and is much more rust resistant. If you buy a new stainless steel slide p226 or P229 in .40 you can get factory .357 SIG barrel that will drop right in and Barsto makes 9MM conversion barrels for around $215 that you can use to shoot 9MM. That's quite a bit of verstatility.

The frames of modern SIG P226 and P220 are also stronger than the frames of early P226 and P220.

I have one of each in the 9MM P226 and love them both and in my hands they both shoot extremely well.

There are lots of good used SIGs for sale if you know what to look for. Hard to beat the lifetime warranty of a new SIG though even if it is very unlikely that one would ever need it.

About two years ago, a good friend bought a new U.S. made P226 and came by for me to show him how to field strip it.

As I slipped the slide off, I sliced my finger clear to the red meat with a sharp sliver of aluminum on the frame rail left from machining.

It is pretty hard for me to imagine anything like that would have made it past the first German guy sweeping the factory floor.

Let alone the German machinists & quality inspectors!

rc

Pre-buy inspections

About two years ago, a good friend bought a new U.S. made P226 and came by for me to show him how to field strip it.

As I slipped the slide off, I sliced my finger clear to the red meat with a sharp sliver of aluminum on the frame rail left from machining.

It is pretty hard for me to imagine anything like that would have made it past the first German guy sweeping the factory floor.

Let alone the German machinists & quality inspectors!

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That is the key.. pre-buy "inspection"

There are many good, German made frames w/ made in USA slides, Sigs in the older P-series still out there, the older, the better. But inspection for such, as mentioned, is key. IF you don't know how (easy) it is to open a Sig up and inspect it have the gun dealer do it for you on the spot.. watch and learn

Chk for, while gun is still together - slide tightness or play, side to side, up or down and back and front.. You want it "even" front and back as much as possible if limited of selection/s of same model.. Chk trigger pull smoothness in DA mode and chk SA trigger break for clean/lighter, crisp break w/no felt creep (trigger movement prior to break of hammer drop)

With gun still together and slide locked closed, chk muzzle/barrel lock-up for evenness, as you look at it, then tightness by putting the tip of you pinkie finger or index finger into barrel opening and chk for movement by light/pushing up and down and side to side.. should be tight and even. Then if it passes those test and just physical exterior inspection, no scratches, marks, mags pop out freely and go in with no problems, then proceed to have it taken apart and chk interiors as mentioned.. below

Once inside, feel for burrs along frame rail guides and inspect slide with barrel out for same..

IF more than same gun on display - chk both out, be patient, find the best all around gun in your opinion such as:

chk for metal guide rod vs plastic, those can be swapped right there IF you want gun A over gun B..

Sights, some come with 3 dot Sig night sights, nice, but some come with standard 2-dot combat sights, also nice IMO, but those remain on gun at sale, no swapping there. Not gonna happen

And sure, IF they have a Pure, older, German gun there, I wouldn't hesitate long and I'd take it, quick, as they have a lighter, more balanced, less top-heavy, pressed slide and they look a bit different to the same USA made heavier milled SS slides.. but either gun, if chked out and nice, tight, clean, and price is good/right, is a winner.. I have both types.

Few and far in-between of any NIB all German Sigs of late.. but

There ya go, luck



Ls

I don't think it's a German versus American thing as much as a recent decline. Will a new Sig work? Probably. But that's a far cry from the "definitely" of days past.

I'm a big Sig fan and never had a problem (including those with American-made slides) until I got hold of a 2004-2005 era P220ST and found out the extractor woes weren't just Internet myth, despite the denials of Sig customer service.

As mentioned before, too many good deals on older Sigs out there to take a chance on a new gun, unless you really need a tactical purple polka dot finish.

Nobody makes nuthin' like they used to. Get over it. Most of us aren't able to utilize any gun to its maximum capability and we will never stress it to failure in our lifetime. The argument that the older SIGs (or S&Ws or Colts or Walthers or whatever) are better than the newer ones is academic anyway. Nobody is going back to building anything the way they used to.

I have a new SP2022 that states proudly on the frame, "Exeter, NH". I've put in about 300rds and so far, based on my experiences, I would not hesitate to buy another US-made Sig. The German made ones would be cool to own, though. But I am happy to buy an American made product. If I get a good product at a good price and can support some Americans in this lousy economy, then I'll do so.

And I love the P229 elite... pure sex.

I have ~20K rounds through a newer P226 (2009 manufacture) without a single problem or breakage. I've shot both versions of the P226 and actually prefer the feel of the milled stainless steel slide to the carbon steel folded one. There was a period of higher than normal issues after the Kimber guy took over but that seems to have been resolved... now if they'd just stop making stupid looking finishes and instead make some without the rail again.

Now if you must have an older West German one... I might know where an unfired one in its original box is.

Nobody makes nuthin' like they used to. Get over it. Most of us aren't able to utilize any gun to its maximum capability and we will never stress it to failure in our lifetime. The argument that the older SIGs (or S&Ws or Colts or Walthers or whatever) are better than the newer ones is academic anyway. Nobody is going back to building anything the way they used to.

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Simply not true... Yes production methods have changed over the years. Materials have changed but that is not what has fundementallly changed at Sig.

It is not about shooting a gun to the point of failure. Its about guns failing right out of the box because the QC was lacking because they had to move the metal down the line and out the door.

Again this does not mean that you are not going to get a good pistol out of Sig these days. It does not mean that you always got a good one back in the day.

It is not academic in that you can take 3 different P220s from different eras and have 3 levels of quality & reliablity in real world use. I personally do not consider that academic.

My Sig p226 says made in w Germany 1990. Nickel upper black aluminum
Bottom. I bought it used 9 years ago and shoot the heck out of it.
All of my guns are for shooting and carrying.

Yes, this is the main problem.
Lack of QC.
Most of the materials and technology today is vastly superior to that of even a decade ago.
Ive put more than 20,000 rounds thru my mosquito which is not even made by sig but that is a lot of rounds for any handgun.
In the past few people would ever put that many rounds thru any handgun. But today it is more and more commonplace with all the training that people do.

rellascout.

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to call me a liar.

rellascout.

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to call me a liar.

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Excuse me?

Please show me where I said you were a liar. You stated an opinion which I 100% disagree with. I illustrated why I beleive that your statement was not true. That it does not accurately represent the issue of Old Sigs vs New Sigs. You IMHO are trivializing the issue.

The issue of Old Sigs vs New Sigs is not an acdemic issue to be dicussed but instead is a real world issue which many shooters who have shot Sig for decades are aware of and have experienced.

Sorry but telling you that your statement is innaccurate and not true is not the same as calling you a liar.

PS Lighten up Francis..... LOL

When you quote me and then begin your response with "Simply not true...", you just called me a liar.

I don't take that lightly.

When you quote me and then begin your response with "Simply not true...", you just called me a liar.

I don't take that lightly.

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Lighten up Francis. This is an internet message board we are allowed to disagree with you. You are allowed to disagree with me. You really need to take a chill pill. Everyone who disagrees with you is not calling you a liar. :banghead:

You are wrong in your assessment and you are wrong on the facts. People do not have issue with newer Sigs because they do not last as long or that the materials are universally inferior. They have issues with newer Sigs because more of them fail right out of the box than ever before.

From what I have seen the quality of construction and QC is down. Number of problem guns is up in terms of raw numbers and %. Over the last 5 to 8 years they have put profits and volume before quality and IMHO their product suffers as a result. You can choose to believe that this is not the case. The dislike of new Sigs is not about materials or the way things used to be made it is about attention to detail and basic QC. YMMV and if it does it does not make either of us a liar....

I'm gonna post this one last time and be done with this. If rellascout had read my original post he would discover I never disagreed with any of this comments concerning QC. Here is what I said (just as he quoted it):

"Nobody makes nuthin' like they used to. Get over it. Most of us aren't able to utilize any gun to its maximum capability and we will never stress it to failure in our lifetime. The argument that the older SIGs (or S&Ws or Colts or Walthers or whatever) are better than the newer ones is academic anyway. Nobody is going back to building anything the way they used to."

I don't even know what he got his panties in a wad about. Did he disagree that nobody makes anything like they used to? Did he disagree that most of us not using our guns to maximum capability? Did he disagree that most of us would never stress our guns to failure in our lifetime? Did he disagree that the fact that newer guns not being made as well as older guns is only an issue for the sake of argument since no one will be going back and building them the way they originally did?

Instead of actually reading and understanding what I said, he immediately pitched a fit about what I said being untrue. Jeez, I thought I was on The High Road, not SIGforums where even the moderators launch into people for no real reason.

for my first centerfire auto pistol, my dad picked up a nice W.German made p226 9mm for me as a christmas gift, I love this gun, two of the guys I shoot with have newer US made sigs, a p226 40 and a p229 elite in 357 and they havent had any problems with them, now i would like to find a p228

Dogguy,

You're being too sensitive. I also disagree with what you wrote and I'm also not calling you a liar.

Nobody makes nuthin' like they used to. Get over it.

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What exactly does that mean and how does it apply to whether SIG USA or SIG GMY is a better alternative? Rella's post made a lot of sense to me.

This IS the high road and I think Rella was firmly on it with his respectful disagreement with what you wrote.