How free do you want to be poll

How much freedom should we really have?

  • Prohibition

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Strict Control

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Moderate Control

    Votes: 17 3.1%
  • Limited Control

    Votes: 289 53.2%
  • No Control

    Votes: 236 43.5%

  • Total voters
    543
  • Poll closed .
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I'm old enough to remember pre-64 when there was "no control" other than the 1934 NFA.

You could buy guns mail order no questions asked & pretty much nobody locked their doors or took the keys out of their cars.
 
I believe you are correct, but 1963-1964 was when they started beating the guns = crime drum with Dodd introducing bills to ban mail order sales and "Saturday night specials".

Then as with Clinton's ban, some very short-sighted industry people supported the legislation hoping to eliminate competition from "cheap foreign made guns. Didn't actually pass until '68.

Here is a nice article about the history of gun control in the US:

http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/zimring68.htm
 
I voted 4 "Limited Control" except that I think there should be CCW permits. Some people are just plain too dangerous or not responsible enough to be carrying in public. I can't believe some of you voted "No Control" Are you serious?

It works just fine in Four States of the Union.

Besides, I can carry concealed without a permit. Concealed means concealed! Having a permit just makes it legal.

Criminals don't seem to be deterred by the fact that what they are doing is illegal.
 
I voted for Limited gun control, even though criminals can get guns regardless, having a background check helps prevent them from buying from reputable dealers and misuseing the firearm to do harm which may reflect back to the honest shop owner. I also believe that there should be mandatory education to anyone who intends on owning a firearm. It doesn't have to be much. Kinda like a Hunters safety course, education on how to safely handle the gun, basic functions of the gun, maintaining, safe shooting area's(bullet ricochet etc) and safe storage of the gun. Also a short class range visit with a simple handling responsibility test where you actually handle guns and then shoot a couple rounds.
Safety training is a good idea. Required safety training is too much infringement. My neighbor bought a chainsaw after a big storm to cut up fallen trees. She didn't read the owner's manual beyond how to start the thing and messed the chain up in a few minutes. She had no idea what she was doing. She was a danger to herself and others. This does not mean that you should have to take a course in order to buy or use a chainsaw. Plenty of states get along fine without mandatory gun courses. If there is any reliable statistical evidence that mandatory training significantly reduces firearm accidents I'm unaware of it. If you know of any please post it. You don't enact laws just in case they will work. You do not infringe on people's rights - or even just inconvenience millions of people - without good reason and proof that you have a reasonable chance of success. Unless you're running for office... ;)

As far as a license goes it would be exactly like my hunter ed card is. Simple on record proof that I have completed a short course on responsible ownership and use.
Hunting is a privilege. Gun ownership is a right. You don't require a license to exercise a right.

If a person is being irresponsible and is reported by forsay a range officer or other safety personnel like game wardens etc you should have to retest on your own dime(a small fee of 25$ or similar) and if you are a repeat offender potential suspension of "license".
All range officers or anyone else authorized would have to be state employees like the game wardens you reference. Doesn't sound fiscally viable to me. Reckless endangerment is already a crime. Anyone can report it.

Of course this is far from a finished system
We agree here.

and needs things worked out like, "What happens if my license is suspended, where to my firearms go" "What if an angry range officer or similar wrongly accuses me of improper use?" and various other issues.
Exactly. You agree that there should be no concealed carry permit required:
4 - Limited control Background checks at time of purchase, no mag restrictions, no registration, no CCW permit required.
but you're suggesting that we give range employees and unnamed other parties the authority to have someones guns confiscated. Non-starter.

But that is what i believe would make firearms a more accepted thing, as well as reducing gun related non criminal accidents and whatnot.
Firearm accidents in the U.S. have been steadily declining in rate for decades. Even in 2010, in spite of the fact that firearm ownership saw a dramatic increase, the economy is in shambles, and a few more states added concealed carry to the mix. You're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Your solution is to make it harder to own guns, far easier to have them taken away, less encouraging to pursue as a hobby, and part of your justification is to suggest that this will somehow make them more accepted.

I'm guessing here, but I would think that your proposed law would either discourage use of gun ranges or just not be enforced by any range that wanted to stay in business. I'm also pretty sure that most gun "accidents" occur at places other than gun ranges but I have not researched that. As for regulating those other places, as I think about who would be in charge, how they would have and use authority to detain and "ticket" a person and so on, it starts to slide off the rails pretty quickly.

Of course guns used in crime will likely stay the same but thats more of a law enforcement issue (more so law system issue) for not stopping the importation of illegal guns and stopping suspected offenders before its a problem, IE gangs. If you have any thoughts or comments for me I am interested.
Guns are guns and crime is crime. You can use a car, a telephone or a candy bar to commit a crime. We don't regulate importation of them to prevent them from being used in crimes.

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this and taken the time to express your opinion. Please take some time to think over my response and reply with your conclusions. I am honestly interested in your response and promise to remain civil. I may even try to be nice. :)
 
I already addressed that. "Shall not be infringed" was a mistake, and that's why we have amendments to the Constitution. America's founding fathers were not infallible, omniscient Gods. They were men, and in wording the second amendment, they erred.

So you would eliminate the 2nd Amendment. Good to know. Any other Amendments you would like to do away with? The 1st, 4th or 5th for example?

Fortunately, they still exist, even if they are compromised and abused.
 
I'm ok with background checks at dealers. Private person to person shouldn't require one. As long as a person can legally own a firearm, no restrictions. I'm speaking of firearms not grenades and explosives.
 
To all the people who are saying gun control laws only affect people who actually follow the law and therefore are irrelevant really need to pull their heads out of their... if that is the case, then what is the point of having any laws, period.

The point is that you know what you can do or not. To prevent the arbitrary use of government to punish people who run afoul of the powerful.

One of the most important limits on government power happened when the people of Rome forced the Kings of Rome to write down the law, so that all might know it.

One of the really, really big problems with the current government, (not just this administration, but for decades) is that bureaucratic rules have the power of law, and nobody can possibly know or follow all of them.
 
For those who endorse "some control" with restrictions on felons and other undesirables, let's have a look what the actual implementation requires.

ID. Everyone has to have ID. The ID has to be state approved and, if firearms regulations are federal (national), then the ID has to be acceptable to the feds as well. The feds are like any bureaucracy, they won't be happy with broad variations in format or validations and will want to "standardize" the process, always working toward a National ID (which they will control and monitor) and eventually becoming a key to every official interaction with government.

The vision is kind of "SSN gene-spliced with driver's license with some next-gen RFID" allowing government to "properly manage" the population and its activities. It will, of course, be promoted as a convenience to the citizenry, a protection against fraud, and an assurance that one is "properly enrolled" in all the entitlements that are one's due.

Oh, and it will guarantee that the freedom to exercise your rights is intact, since we will always know who you are.

And this makes perfect sense because . . . well, we issue federal ID to felons as well, and that makes it easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys. And since there will never be any doubt that you're a good guy, we can go back to selling guns in hardware stores and gas stations, because the proprietor will always have the confidence that the ID he's scanning is legitimate, and the customer is exactly who he says he is. Because felons won't carry counterfeit ID cards, and they won't lie about who they are, and they will always go through officially approved channels to obtain their weapons.

('Scuse me while I wrestle my tongue back out of my cheek before I sprain it.)


Well, okay, since we have to concede that the bad guys might just possibly break the rules (the really, really bad ones), then I guess we can't do away with the FFL system. But most bad guys will play by the rules. Really. No, I'm serious here -- stop that laughing!


Hmmm. Okay, that's probably not gonna work out like the bureaucrats suggest, but it could work out, so we have to at least try, right? So we do the National ID thing. I mean, really, what could go wrong?

(Ow. I bit my tongue.)


What's that you say? Keep the bad guys locked up until we're certain we can trust them? Perform actual rehabilitation? Dude! You can't do that! That would be cruel and unusual punishment!

We have to let them out . . . so they can mingle with society and honest folk . . . but that's okay because we register them, and we always know where they are. How? Hey, remember that National ID?

And since we have to be sensitive to the needs of felons -- like their healthy interaction with society -- we have to continue to make sure that, when you want to exercise your rights, you aren't one of them.

Because you can never really be sure, right?

But since we're the government, you can trust us with this system.

Because gun control has done much to reduce crime.

Hey, just look at our record. We have complete gun control in Chicago and Washington DC, and look what it's done for them!


Hey, come on, we only want a little control.

And it's for your own good.

Think of the children.


Ditto! I lack the writing skills to pack such sarcasm and contempt into what I want to say.

Thank you for putting it so well.
 
If even No Controls restricts possession to adults only, then everyone, including most antis agree that "reasonable controls" are necessary and good. The only disagreement is over what constitutes "reasonable", and that is just a matter of prevailing opinion.
 
What is reasonable? Is yours the same as mine?

My view of "reasonable gun control" is being able to hit what you aim at. I know that many here consider that extremist, but then so were the Founding Fathers.
 
If someone cannot be trusted with a firearm due to criminal violence, why are they not sill in prison?

If someone has been released from prison due to them no longer posing a threat, why are they denied their rights?

Some people are released from prison as their assigned punishment is up, not because they are about to become model citizens.
 
If an adult is dangerous with a firearm, they:
a) Are frequently able to obtain a firearm illegally
b) Are also dangerous with a car
c) Are also dangerous with a knife
d) Are also dangerous with their hands or other body parts
Having legal access to firearms does not affect a person's character. If they are evil, they are evil with or without legal access to firearms.
If somebody would be dangerous with a firearm, they would be dangerous if free in society no matter what. People who should be locked up should be locked up. People who should be free should be free.

As for minors, it is very evident that minors are not considered people in the eyes of the law regarding the Constitution. They are in training to be people and are supposedly under the guidance of their parents, though this is now being discouraged by government parenting. If they're not free people, they don't need access to guns.
 
If their punishment is up, why are they further punished by being denied rights?
If you are cool with folks who served time for assault/rape/attempted murder legally buying guns, then good for you. I am not.

Also, since we are making crap up in this thread, I would be fine with part of the punishment for felony assault/rape/attempted murder being denied firearms ownership when out of prison.
 
Felon's and those with severe diminished mental capabilities or mental disease should not have weapons.......period.


The government is quite literally filled with people who would be positively ecstatic if the proletariat (that's us) were no longer allowed to own guns. Are these the people you want to determine what is and isn't a felony and who is and isn't mentally deficient? The felony thing sounds so nice, but the truth is the people who want to take your guns are the ones who decide what constitutes a felony.


Some people are just plain too dangerous or not responsible enough to be carrying in public.

Those people should not be walking the streets. Dangerous people are dangerous no matter what the law says and the law abiding should have every possible tool available to defend themselves from them. The law CANNOT protect you. The law is merely an avenue to punish someone after they have hurt you. Laws can only truly be reactive, as proactive laws fail every single measure of constitutionality and effectiveness.


as opposed to the government that has never in the last 235 years shown any desire to enslave the general populace

It's tax time. Try not paying them and see how free you really are.


And who decides who is and who is not to have a firearm? The government? Remember these are the same folks that have called anyone with military service, a faith in God or an interest in firearms a potential terrorist.

QFT


Will [felons] still get guns? Yes, but they will get to go back to prison when caught, too.

So we're making mere possession a punishable offense. I would have absolutely no problem with a felon using guns the same way I do: for entertainment and self protection. I have a huge problem with anybody using guns to endanger or threaten others, prior record or not. If I ask why a felon should not be allowed to own guns, and your answer is "they might hurt someone," I say you might hurt someone too, and that would be just as wrong as if the felon did it.


I'm speaking of firearms not grenades and explosives.

And why not grenades or explosives? Either they're for entertainment and self protection, which is right and just, or they're for threatening and harming others, which is wrong no matter what tool is used and will happen no matter what they law says.
 
If you are cool with folks who served time for assault/rape/attempted murder legally buying guns, then good for you. I am not.

Also, since we are making crap up in this thread, I would be fine with part of the punishment for felony assault/rape/attempted murder being denied firearms ownership when out of prison.

I am "fine" with people who have committed murder or rape being executed. If not that, locked up for life. Really locked up for life, not what is currently considered "Life" which is about 25 years in this State with time off for almost any excuse.

I am not "fine" with them being let out to kill again.

I am not glad to know that you are "fine" with letting dangerous people back on the street, but I am glad you come out and say it.
 
I am "fine" with people who have committed murder or rape being executed. If not that, locked up for life. Really locked up for life, not what is currently considered "Life" which is about 25 years in this State with time off for almost any excuse.

I am not "fine" with them being let out to kill again.

I am not glad to know that you are "fine" with letting dangerous people back on the street, but I am glad you come out and say it.

I am not fine with letting dangerous people back on the street, I am just aware that it happens.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
 
The government is quite literally filled with people who would be positively ecstatic if the proletariat (that's us) were no longer allowed to own guns. Are these the people you want to determine what is and isn't a felony and who is and isn't mentally deficient? The felony thing sounds so nice, but the truth is the people who want to take your guns are the ones who decide what constitutes a felony


Which is why I posted this.


“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers — and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system.”

Everyone seems to be so OK with infringing on the rights of ex-felons, since after all they're criminals! But we forget who decides what crime is. All they need to do is make drastic restriction for a small group...and then just slowly shift everyone into that group. Make laws that only apply to felons, and the make more and more things felonies. Just like what they're trying to do with Lautenberg. Instead of just domestic assault, apply it to all assault. Then it will be applied to some other crime, like OWI. Then something else, all under the guise of "it's just to protect you from criminals, you have nothing to worry about".

The government has no power over the innocent. We stand up for the rights of innocent people, but who stands up for criminals? Pretty much no one. We willingly give the government power to act against criminals, which by itself is a good thing. But government, being who they always have been, is not and never will be content with the limited power we give them. So they expand what they have. Bring people under their control. Laws are only for criminals, not the innocent? Well make everyone a criminal and you have complete legal control. They are slowly eroding our rights and we have people on this very board cheering them on.
 
Too many scumbags, not enough space. That may sound like a cold joke, but it's the honest truth

I love the idea that these people can't be trusted with firearms but they can be trusted to be part of society. If you can't be trusted to not shoot people you should be in prison or executed.
 
I once thought about putting up a poll like this, but I was afraid of the answer.

From the poll numbers and responses so far, I was right to fear.

Freedom is hard! It is much easier to just sit back, go along with the herd, do as you are told. After a while, accepting all the little indignities becomes old hat and common place.

How many people think having your picture taken naked by the body scanners at Airports is the minimum we must we must do? How about the full body pat down, even after you have gone through the scanner? DUI checkpoints, rather than actually patrolling the streets and looking for Drunk drivers. If I am not drinking, why should I have to prove my innocence? Limits on Political Free Speech under the guise of "Campaign Finance Reform".

Just what do we give up, in the name of "civility", "working together", "Fairness", or "For the Children"?

Back ground checks.
Ballistic test and registries for guns.
Imprinting serial numbers on primers with the firing pin.
"Smart Guns" which get to decide if you an authorized user.
limits on magazine capacity and calibers.
Making "scary" looking guns illegal.
Making "pink" or non-traditionally collored guns illegal.
Requiring permits to possess.
Total bans in certain places.
Life time bans for certain misdemeanors.
Life time felony bans for non violent offenders.

What rules and limits are you for?

All those rules and limits have been tried and supported by people who claimed to believe in the 2nd Amendment, and support "responsible gun ownership".

If those people are considered friends of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, then God Save Us, no one else can.

I am going off line to go and fondle/clean my guns and have a few stiff drinks. Considering the state of Liberty among those who supposedly believe in RKBA, I feel the need to get drunk.
 
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