What Would You Choose As the M9's Replacement?

drunkensobriety said:

"This is my safety sir." *wiggles index finger*

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I really like that. I don't use safeties. There's no reason to trust them, for me. If I can't trust my brain to tell my finger to do the right thing, I ought not carry anything more complicated than a rubber band gun. I'll say it again: If you're too stupid to use a gun without a safety, you're too stupid to be a cop or a soldier. Or a Marine. Or a sailor. Or an airman.

The U.S Army has been providing the Glock 17 to the Iraq police. It has had great reviews. The reasons for this choice of weapon were ease of use and care for those that are not highly trained.
I can see the Military going Glock. When they do switch they will be one of the last holdouts.

In the vote.....I wonder how many that voted Glock have Military Combat backgrounds??

I would bet less than 1/2.........

I don't understand the point of your poll. It only lists manufacturers, not models or calibers. I want to see the military adopt something in .45 ACP. The brand is secondary although the Springfield XD would be a good choice if they can't go back to the 1911.

Tomcat, I'll be your Huckleberry. I've got combat experience and voted Glock. What angle are you going for there? I didn't have an issue with my M9, but I much prefer the simplicity of the Glock when the adrenaline is high and fine motor skills go out the window.

Disassembly is easy with both. The Glock is lighter and holds 2 more rounds. The Glock is less affected by the elements, namely sand. The Glock is easier and faster to engage targets because there are less steps involved. It is easier to train a new shooter on for the same reasons.

The standard connector might be rated at 5.5#, but the trigger is more like 7-8# after everything is said and done.


The 1911 was designed to have a shorter trigger and both a thumb safety and a grip safety, though the grip safety wasn't an original part of the design. The Glock was designed to not need either of those things and still be safe to carry.

The answer isn't NYPD-style 13# triggers, or an abundance of unnecessary off switches on pistols that only 'need' them because they were common on other designs and people got used to seeing them.

Hondo 60 said:

It is my firm belief that we went with the Beretta simply to have a better political "in" in Italy.
The only advantage the 9mm has over the 1911 is more ammo in the magazine.
Personally, I'd much rather carry a couple of extra magazines.

And I believe that if/when the M9 is replaced it'll once again NOT depend on ballistics, but on politics.

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Why on earth would we need a better political "in"'with on of Europe's poorest countries?

Why on earth would we need a better political "in"'with on of Europe's poorest countries?

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Yeah, that theory has been pretty heavily debunked at this point. The M9 trials were very well documented, somehow Sig actually had a lower price per pistol in their bid, but the total package ended up being more expensive, so we got Berettas. It's easy for people to forget that for a government, you aren't just buying the guns and a few magazines. They're buying lots of magazines, parts, training on both use and repair, the total package ends up costing much more than the cost of the guns.

^^^^ Another +1 for Glock then

The Program Manager who took the 9mm pistol program through downselect briefed my gun club on the process.

No one in their right mind wants to reopen that can of worms. It is way too political and too many eyeballs and too many contractors with political connections to gum up the procurement.

Does anyone remember how long it took to finally select a fuel tanker? http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/kc-x.htm

There were two pistols that were deemed acceptable in the 70’s pistol trials. The SIG lost out due to spare parts costs driving the overall life cycle costs. Life cycle costs were too high. I think the SIG is an excellent design and would make an excellent service pisto.

I hate to tell the M1911 fan boys, but the Army is never going to adopt a single stack, single action auto pistol ever again.

I hate to tell the M1911 fan boys, but the Army is never going to adopt a single stack, single action auto pistol ever again.

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True. Especially when you look at the figures regarding rounds fired vs. hits in combat, crippling yourself with 8 rounds can be a disaster.

I dunno. For a sidearm, I think that if I ever have to fire 15 rounds without a chance to reload, I might be out of luck anyway.

I would be perfectly satisfied with a standard-capacity 1911, but I would take my SF-45 if I were allowed.

It looks FMR/SOCOM units are closer to picking a single-stack 1911.

Especially when you look at the figures regarding rounds fired vs. hits in combat, crippling yourself with 8 rounds can be a disaster.

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We don't have any good data on the number of rounds fired from handguns in combat. What data we do have comes from police use of handguns, and what it shows is that regardless of how many rounds you have on tap -- from 6 to 18, you get about the same number of hits, total.

My pick: Glock 21 Gen4. A full-size gun chambered in .45 ACP that holds 13+1. It's obviously very reliable and has great accuracy. And of course Glocks have been able to prove themselves in various conditions, which unfortunately the M9 has had some problems with.

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+1 on the Glock

We don't have any good data on the number of rounds fired from handguns in combat. What data we do have comes from police use of handguns, and what it shows is that regardless of how many rounds you have on tap -- from 6 to 18, you get about the same number of hits, total.

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Granted the plural of anecdote is not data, but the times I needed my M9 I was glad I had more than 8 rounds. YMMV.

Well if it were up to me, I'd go with the P229/P226 or the Glock 17/19.

FIVETWOSEVEN said:

Ever look at the slide of an XD? It has HS Produkt Karlovac Croatia on it. They are made in Karlovac, Croatia by HS Produkt.

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Yep, I have! The XD is one line of pistols they make. The statement was made that springfield is strictly an importer, and that's simply not true.

Hi-Point .45
Free replacement parts for the whole army.

There should be an option for "don't replace the M9."

I can't think of many military programs that would be a greater waste of money than seeking an M9 replacement, escpecially since the military just ordered a pretty huge contract of new M9s.

CombatArmsUSAF

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIVETWOSEVEN
Ever look at the slide of an XD? It has HS Produkt Karlovac Croatia on it. They are made in Karlovac, Croatia by HS Produkt.

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Yep, I have! The XD is one line of pistols they make. The statement was made that springfield is strictly an importer, and that's simply not true.

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So what handguns does Springfield actually manufacture?

Even their "custom shop" 1911's are built with foreign made frames.

Fnp-45

dogtown tom said:

So what handguns does Springfield actually manufacture?

Even their "custom shop" 1911's are built with foreign made frames.

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And if you think every single part on the M9 is manufactured 100% in the states, you'd be sadly mistaken.

Alot of their parts actually come from Italy.

The point was, SA is not only an importer. So what if they forge their frames somewhere else?? 99.9% of the actual work does take place here in the states.

As a side note, there is no requirement to currently have a US factory anyways. The requirement is that the company will have a factory in the US, meaning if they build a factory after the contract has been rewarded, then they meet the requirement. (Beretta actually did exactly this)

Yep, I have! The XD is one line of pistols they make. The statement was made that springfield is strictly an importer, and that's simply not true.

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XDs aren't made in the US, their 1911s come from Brazil made that way with some models and the custom shop done here in the US on Brazilian forgings. As I recall, the BATF requires where the gun was made to be stamped on the gun and if most of the work is done in one location, that's the location stamped on the gun. Most work is done out of country overall. Lots of their 1911s have Imbrel, Brazil on the side or, on some of them, hidden under the grips.

S&W M&P9

American made by an American company. Reliable, accurate, and lighter weight than an M9.

Available with a safety, if they still use that as a requirement.

FIVETWOSEVEN said:

XDs aren't made in the US, their 1911s come from Brazil made that way with some models and the custom shop done here in the US on Brazilian forgings. As I recall, the BATF requires where the gun was made to be stamped on the gun and if most of the work is done in one location, that's the location stamped on the gun. Most work is done out of country overall. Lots of their 1911s have Imbrel, Brazil on the side or, on some of them, hidden under the grips.

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Except for the ones that have an NM prefix in the serial number and are stamped "Geneseo, IL" "Made in the USA"

Which is about half of the run of the mill springfields you'll run into. More than just their custom shop guns are assembled here. It's about a 50/50 split on their production level guns. The only line of 1911's that aren't split between the two factories is the "GI .45", and that may even be split without me knowing about it.