xxxleafybugxxx
Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2012
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- 333
You won't be dissapointed with the m1a
Reccomend me a .308 Battle Rifle
- Thread starter liberalwithagun
- Start date
- Status
CETME/HK style rifles:
They really get HOT, like can't see your sights through mirage hot. If you're goning to 'run and gun' you might want a different design.
They really get HOT, like can't see your sights through mirage hot. If you're goning to 'run and gun' you might want a different design.
Driftertank
Member
Just got back from a range trip today with my PTR-91F. I had to save one of my targets because i printed a 2.25" 100yd group of 5 using UMC 150gr FMJ from Walmart and iron sights.
My brass is perfectly reloadable, even causing less visible ejection damage than my buddy's new M1A. The secret is a $35 clip-on ejection port buffer. I also have a Bill Springfield match trigger. Accurate as heck and easier on brass than you'd think.
Scope coming soon...
ETA: cocking lever postion sucks for southpaws, but i let a lefty friend shoot mine yesterday and it didn't bother him much. Ambi safeties are available. Recoil moment feels strange when stock (think giant nail gun), but i've added a PSG-1 buffer and recoil now feels smoother than M1A.
My brass is perfectly reloadable, even causing less visible ejection damage than my buddy's new M1A. The secret is a $35 clip-on ejection port buffer. I also have a Bill Springfield match trigger. Accurate as heck and easier on brass than you'd think.
Scope coming soon...
ETA: cocking lever postion sucks for southpaws, but i let a lefty friend shoot mine yesterday and it didn't bother him much. Ambi safeties are available. Recoil moment feels strange when stock (think giant nail gun), but i've added a PSG-1 buffer and recoil now feels smoother than M1A.
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TexasPatriot.308
Member
you need to set new parameters, your requirements aint gonna fit with a .308 combat rifle you are lookin for, price wise or operational wise. do some research.
FAL. Never should have sold mine. On the short list of things to buy when money is available.
My impression of the FAL is that it's the heaviest of the lot and the AR's tend (not always) to be the lighest.
Okay, let's do the sound-bite summary.
HK91/CETME- dependable, horrible ergos, mangle brass
FN FAL- dependable, less accurate than some, good ergos
M1A- dependable, more accurate with iron sights than some, not at all modular and hard to scope
AR10- less dependable, probably most accurate, most modular
So, in a nutshell: if you like a traditional form, and plan on using iron sights...M1A.
If you want the utmost in accuracy and ergonomics, a .308 AR may be your best bet. Good luck finding one in your price range.
If you don't care about reloading, see no need for your weapon to fit you well, but really value reliability- CETME/HK91.
If you want an ergonomic, reliable rifle with readily available mags, that's fairly modular, though not the most accurate rifle in the field, the FAL family may be for you.
Hope that helps.
John
HK91/CETME- dependable, horrible ergos, mangle brass
FN FAL- dependable, less accurate than some, good ergos
M1A- dependable, more accurate with iron sights than some, not at all modular and hard to scope
AR10- less dependable, probably most accurate, most modular
So, in a nutshell: if you like a traditional form, and plan on using iron sights...M1A.
If you want the utmost in accuracy and ergonomics, a .308 AR may be your best bet. Good luck finding one in your price range.
If you don't care about reloading, see no need for your weapon to fit you well, but really value reliability- CETME/HK91.
If you want an ergonomic, reliable rifle with readily available mags, that's fairly modular, though not the most accurate rifle in the field, the FAL family may be for you.
Hope that helps.
John
RangerHAAF
Member
Yes, I've read good things about the Saiga and Vepr though I've never fired either.
mortablunt
Member
You came to the right place.
Battle Rifle accuracy was meant to be highly functional. With most of these guns, don't expect AR-15 level groupings. Again, the AR-15 has inflated the definition of accuracy to extremely high levels. Actual battle rifle accuracy is 2-3MOA most of the time, but skilled shooters can get much more out of them.
The AR series is the easiest to work on period. Others can be more or less complicated.
This can be quite the task, even with more commonly available guns, since many of them lack new part sources.
That one is quite thorny. Some calibers were designed with primers that make reloading hard.
You're such a masochist.
The dependably good guns are going to average $700.
Accurate: Oh yeah this one is accurate. Expect accuracy of between <1-2MOA.
Workable: Cleaning it is not too hard and the controls make sense.
Parts: Commonly available and not too expensive.
Brass: Certain 308 loadings can be reloaded. I am uncertain as to whether or not the gas system makes much of a difference for reloading.
Lefty: Perfect. The controls are all on the left side, so it's a perfect sinister rifle. No ejection problems either.
Price: $700 and up for a dependably good one. Below that and you're tangling with Century and gun from people you don't know all that well. I had myself a nice Century FAL for the $500's, but I was taking a gamble. The old style FAL's are beautiful rifles and I love the sights.
Out of all the guns I've used, the FAL and the AK are my favorites. I'd trust my life to either of them.
Accurate: It's right there in the acronym. Yes, this is highly accurate, being an accurized G3.
Workable: It controls like a G3. It has the handle way up on the front left.
Parts: Not really certain. G3's are their parts are rare and expensive in the U.S.A. I never looked around much.
Brass: The G3 and all its family is hard on brass. It's known for its very violent action, which frequently mangles casings and can throw them 30 feet away. Never stand on the right side of someone with a G3. The recoil, action, and such are violent, even for guys used to 7.62
Lefty: The controls are all on the left side. Keep your arm below the ejection port and you should be fine. Don't buy without picking it up first to see if you could safely use it.
Price: $1200 and up is to be expected. This gun is a bit out of your ideal price range.
Accurate: Do you have to ask
Workable: I'll admit I don't know what workable means in this context. Is it ergonomics, ability to be modified, or what.
Parts: All over the place and affordable.
Brass: Modern 308 loads can be reloaded.
Lefty: Not really. The action and everything would be in your face. The controls are on the right.
Price: This would fall into the upper reaches, but it's in your budget.
That's a relief, because:
Accurate: Possiblty the most accurate.
Workable: What is this I don't even...
Parts: Everywhere
Brass: Reloadable
Lefty: No, unless you add in deflector plates or get a super rare and pricey lefty upper.
Price: Out of your range; the most expensive here.
Now here's a rifle that I'd like to recommend.
SVT-40
Accurate: Definitely.
Workable: Huh?
Parts: Expensive, but available if you look hard enough.
Brass: Berdan primer. Probably not. The 7.62x54R ammo is dirt cheap.
Lefty: The long stock keeps my head way from the action, so unless you are significantly bigger, then yeah. The safety is just a hinged tongue of metal, and the bolt is pulled from the right.
Price: The lowest I saw was for $600, although $800 and above is more common.
The magazines, bayonets, and everything else is bloody expensive. Just buy 2-4 magazines and use clips to load them. It can use the same clips as the Mosin-Nagant.
I recommend the FAL most heavily.
As another gunny Liberal, I'd say: The High Road- Enabling Gun Addictions Even if You Cannot Access a Gun.
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lmccrock
Member
If you want something different, then FAL. The DS Arms STG58 used to be all parts kits, but they ran out so now have some new parts, like the barrel. Not as modular as an AR, but lots of stuff out there, and fun to shoot. Compared to a 308 AR with similar barrel length, not heavy. Magazines not as cheap and available as they used to be, but looks like DSA finally figured out how to make them.
If by "AR-10" you mean generic 308 AR, then know that while others make a 308 AR, only Armalite makes the "AR-10". You can get a DPMS carbine for around a $1000, but that has the stock trigger which you would want to replace, and it would need sights.
I have M1, STG-58, and 308 AR (DPMS LR-308). M1 for the classic feel, DPMS for accuracy (easiest to scope as well), STG58 for fun.
henschman
Member
As you can see, everyone has their own opinions and preferences on this subject. I would ignore everyone who says "x is the only way to go, hands down, bar none," etc. and JUST BUY ONE. Buy whatever tickles your fancy. You will learn more about it, and about the other types, as you get experience shooting it. You may very well end up buying something else on down the line, but the important thing is to BUY SOMETHING and START SHOOTING IT!!!
Whatever you get, one of your first orders of business should be to go to an Appleseed with it.
Good luck!
Whatever you get, one of your first orders of business should be to go to an Appleseed with it.
Good luck!
axeman_g
Member
Ok... 62 response and i will give you my two cents now. My opinion is the best and the only one you should take to heart. (this is sarcasm).
PTR-91: No bolt hold open device, horrible brass abuse (I dont reload so I dont really care) but that fluted chamber does help reliability, recoil mechanism creates worst recoil feel of all the rifles listed. I like the HK drum sights, grip angle and size of the rifle, but hate the left side forward bolt lever. This is an issue for lefties, not if you have 4' long arms, but if you dont you must either lower the rifle and pull it back or turn your body to the right to extend your arm out to manipulate the bolt. Nice rifle.. but comes in fifth.
Saiga: I have seen some very impressive Saiganovs, Saigas built to resemble Draganovs or PSLs. They can be very accurate, on par with FAL and PTR. Mags are not cheap, easy to work on and build. You could prob get into on for $450 then build it out for another $300 leaving you $400 for ammo (about 2K rounds if you shop around). The one I fired was setup more like a carbine and it was a handful, but enjoyable to shoot. Easy for lefties with the controls on the rights side. Can not remember if there is a bho device. 4th
M1A: GREAT RIFLE for accuracy, pleasure to shoot, the cadillac of battle rifles. 1" groups all day long if you do your part. The Best iron sights, trigger, easy to work on, simple mechanism and parts availability. Cons.. safety while fantasticly placed for lefties is in a dangerous sport, inside the trigger guard, this can lead to ADs. Heavy, heavy mags. Expensive and expensive to put glass on. Not easily nor CHEAPLY adaptable to different shooting styles or needs. Accessories abound but not in any way affordable. It is the rich mans rifle. Loved mine, loved it. A SA M1a Loaded model... loved it. But hated the fact that is was an older style battle rifle that was almost impossible to affordably update it. Slow... if you ever want to run it in any sort of competition that is timed, it is slow.... slow .... slow. 3rd
AR-10: The most accurate 7.62x51 battle rifles... border on DMR style rifles. But they can be heavy, tend to be over accessorized and limited in use. It seems as if a everyone I see is on a bipod with glass and free float tubes. A battle rifle... maybe if not legoed out. Expensive for quality, and you will cry twice if you dont buy quality the first time with an Ar10. If you are looking for sniper rifle style shooting this si where to go or the M1a. If you want a run and gun rifle look elsewhere. 2nd
FAL: Had one... sold it. Died a little bit that day. Got another one just recently, traded my M1a for a DSA STG58c. Beautiful aesthetics and form, great history, easy to maintain, fix, build, work on, accesorize or generally screw around with. Accuracy not on par with the M1a, but minute of paper plate at 200yards. Mags are cheap and plentiful. Parts are eveywhere... more countries have used the FAL then any other weapon system and there are spares all over the world. Easy to use for a lefty, only issue is the left side bolt lever, but that is a simple slight tip of the rifle to the right and recharge. Has a bolt hold open device... mags clear easily and bolt drops with a flick of the trigger finger for a lefty. Saftey flicks up or down with trigger finger or thumb from other side of pistol grip. Did I mention great looks... classic.
Get a FAL... if you want one now the feeling will NEVER go away. Go to the FalFiles.com and find your self a parts gun. There are some great ones for sale right now that if I had more money i would buy.
PTR-91: No bolt hold open device, horrible brass abuse (I dont reload so I dont really care) but that fluted chamber does help reliability, recoil mechanism creates worst recoil feel of all the rifles listed. I like the HK drum sights, grip angle and size of the rifle, but hate the left side forward bolt lever. This is an issue for lefties, not if you have 4' long arms, but if you dont you must either lower the rifle and pull it back or turn your body to the right to extend your arm out to manipulate the bolt. Nice rifle.. but comes in fifth.
Saiga: I have seen some very impressive Saiganovs, Saigas built to resemble Draganovs or PSLs. They can be very accurate, on par with FAL and PTR. Mags are not cheap, easy to work on and build. You could prob get into on for $450 then build it out for another $300 leaving you $400 for ammo (about 2K rounds if you shop around). The one I fired was setup more like a carbine and it was a handful, but enjoyable to shoot. Easy for lefties with the controls on the rights side. Can not remember if there is a bho device. 4th
M1A: GREAT RIFLE for accuracy, pleasure to shoot, the cadillac of battle rifles. 1" groups all day long if you do your part. The Best iron sights, trigger, easy to work on, simple mechanism and parts availability. Cons.. safety while fantasticly placed for lefties is in a dangerous sport, inside the trigger guard, this can lead to ADs. Heavy, heavy mags. Expensive and expensive to put glass on. Not easily nor CHEAPLY adaptable to different shooting styles or needs. Accessories abound but not in any way affordable. It is the rich mans rifle. Loved mine, loved it. A SA M1a Loaded model... loved it. But hated the fact that is was an older style battle rifle that was almost impossible to affordably update it. Slow... if you ever want to run it in any sort of competition that is timed, it is slow.... slow .... slow. 3rd
AR-10: The most accurate 7.62x51 battle rifles... border on DMR style rifles. But they can be heavy, tend to be over accessorized and limited in use. It seems as if a everyone I see is on a bipod with glass and free float tubes. A battle rifle... maybe if not legoed out. Expensive for quality, and you will cry twice if you dont buy quality the first time with an Ar10. If you are looking for sniper rifle style shooting this si where to go or the M1a. If you want a run and gun rifle look elsewhere. 2nd
FAL: Had one... sold it. Died a little bit that day. Got another one just recently, traded my M1a for a DSA STG58c. Beautiful aesthetics and form, great history, easy to maintain, fix, build, work on, accesorize or generally screw around with. Accuracy not on par with the M1a, but minute of paper plate at 200yards. Mags are cheap and plentiful. Parts are eveywhere... more countries have used the FAL then any other weapon system and there are spares all over the world. Easy to use for a lefty, only issue is the left side bolt lever, but that is a simple slight tip of the rifle to the right and recharge. Has a bolt hold open device... mags clear easily and bolt drops with a flick of the trigger finger for a lefty. Saftey flicks up or down with trigger finger or thumb from other side of pistol grip. Did I mention great looks... classic.
Get a FAL... if you want one now the feeling will NEVER go away. Go to the FalFiles.com and find your self a parts gun. There are some great ones for sale right now that if I had more money i would buy.
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Driftertank
Member
Really want to interject here again, the HK's that everyone keeps stating "mangle their brass" are only tough on them because the ejection is, shall we say, vigorous, and tends to slam the cases against the ejection port, HARD. Puts a big fat dent in it. With a port buffer, that problem is solved. The flutes leave stripes on the cases, but as far as i've been able to determine, it's mostly cosmetic, cleaning and sizing takes care of that. If it effects neck or shoulder strength, hell i'll let you know after a few reloads, as i'm just getting into it, personally.
For that matter, i hear M1A's tend to stretch cases. Just sayin'...
For that matter, i hear M1A's tend to stretch cases. Just sayin'...
Driftertank
Member
Also, while it may be an over-simplification, in my mind i have a simple heirarchy of the "Big 4 Battle Rifles" as to where they fall on the accuracy/reliability compromise:
HIGHEST ACCURACY POTENTIAL
AR-10
M1A/M14
G3/HK91/PTR91
FAL/L1A1
BEST RELIABILITY IN ADVERSE CONDITIONS
I'm sure there's room for debate there, and in the case of last week's range session that i mentioned before, my PTR91 showed better accuracy than my buddy's M1A, but his is rack-grade and we both decided his front sight sucked, while my PTR benefited from a heavy "Match" barrel (stock on all PTR91F) and excellent HK diopter sights.
HIGHEST ACCURACY POTENTIAL
AR-10
M1A/M14
G3/HK91/PTR91
FAL/L1A1
BEST RELIABILITY IN ADVERSE CONDITIONS
I'm sure there's room for debate there, and in the case of last week's range session that i mentioned before, my PTR91 showed better accuracy than my buddy's M1A, but his is rack-grade and we both decided his front sight sucked, while my PTR benefited from a heavy "Match" barrel (stock on all PTR91F) and excellent HK diopter sights.
axeman_g
Member
Driftertank... I really wanted to like the HKs... but the bolt mech is a big issue for lefties. Please keep in mind that the OP is a lefty.
By the way... you can put HK Diopter sites on a Fal with a new base being made by a guy on Falfiles. I will let you all know how it works out soon.
By the way... you can put HK Diopter sites on a Fal with a new base being made by a guy on Falfiles. I will let you all know how it works out soon.
im a M14 lover so of course im gonna suggest the SAi M1A. some gripe that the recievers arent to spec, but ive never been let down by one. fun to shoot, and extremely accurate. my little Socom 16 is a flamethrowing beast that will suprise you how accurate it is. i bang 16" steel plates at 350yds with it all day long.
henschman
Member
I haven't ever seen so many people who are so enamored with HK sights. What's the big deal? They require a special tool to adjust elevation and a screwdriver to adjust windage, they only have 4 elevation settings, and only adjust out to 400m. Plus their adjustment values are a wierd fraction of MOA. They are some of the worst iron sights among the battle rifles IMO. The only worse one would be the Saiga (which requires a tool to adjust elevation and a hammer/drift to adjust windage). At least on a FAL you don't need any special tools to adjust the sights (elevation adjusts with a bullet tip and windage with a screwdriver), and the BDC adjusts out to 600m.
The AR, assuming you have a carry handle type rear sight, is a little better in that it is finger click adjustable for windage at the rear, and adjusts for elevation at the front sight with a bullet tip. The BDC goes from 300-600m. They also have some odd MOA value clicks.
But when it comes to iron sights, you can't do any better than the M1 and M1A: nice easy 1 MOA clicks for both windage and elevation at the rear sight, and a BDC that goes from 100-1100m.
Another downside to the PTR/HK is that they don't make them with chrome lined barrels. Hell, it is getting hard enough to find a FAL or M1A with a CL barrel anymore. In the world of .308 ARs, Bushmaster and Armalite are about the only ones who make a decently-priced AR with a CL barrel.
I place a lot of value on that feature for a battle rifle. My personal choice is an old Springfield M1A from back when they made them with all GI parts.
But don't get caught up in other people's personal preferences. Like I said, just buy something and start shooting!
The AR, assuming you have a carry handle type rear sight, is a little better in that it is finger click adjustable for windage at the rear, and adjusts for elevation at the front sight with a bullet tip. The BDC goes from 300-600m. They also have some odd MOA value clicks.
But when it comes to iron sights, you can't do any better than the M1 and M1A: nice easy 1 MOA clicks for both windage and elevation at the rear sight, and a BDC that goes from 100-1100m.
Another downside to the PTR/HK is that they don't make them with chrome lined barrels. Hell, it is getting hard enough to find a FAL or M1A with a CL barrel anymore. In the world of .308 ARs, Bushmaster and Armalite are about the only ones who make a decently-priced AR with a CL barrel.
I place a lot of value on that feature for a battle rifle. My personal choice is an old Springfield M1A from back when they made them with all GI parts.
But don't get caught up in other people's personal preferences. Like I said, just buy something and start shooting!
The op mentioned the M1A can be a problem ejecting brass for lefties. I own two M1A shoot left hand I'm have not had any issues with brass hitting me.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"- Benjamin Franklin
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"- Benjamin Franklin
ol' scratch
Member
PTR 91-great quality, cheapest mags of the four, but DESTROYS BRASS. I sold mine because of it. Recoil is very noticeable, of the four it is the second toughest to mount optics. Sights are the worst of the bunch.
AR-10- expensive mags, balances funny. You can only use mags made by the company. Easy to mount optics. PROBABLY the most accurate of the four without tuning. Good sights on the A2
M1A-Price- but great quality. Accuracy is great in a tuned rifle. Some people complain that it is a cast receiver. Not really an issue. Can be finicky with reloaded ammo, watch the port pressure. Tough to mount optics, but the best sights of the four.
DSA STG 58 (FN FAL)- Very good quality. Forged receiver and made with some milsurp parts. Bi pod and really cool look. WELL BUILT. Easy to mount optics with extra part, it has an adjustable gas system and pretty good sights. Mags aren't too expensive. Negatives, very heavy, milsurp parts don't have matching numbers, very heavy trigger.
I ended up going with the FN FAL due to the construction and the way it balances plus everything I already mentioned. It is also in your price range.
AR-10- expensive mags, balances funny. You can only use mags made by the company. Easy to mount optics. PROBABLY the most accurate of the four without tuning. Good sights on the A2
M1A-Price- but great quality. Accuracy is great in a tuned rifle. Some people complain that it is a cast receiver. Not really an issue. Can be finicky with reloaded ammo, watch the port pressure. Tough to mount optics, but the best sights of the four.
DSA STG 58 (FN FAL)- Very good quality. Forged receiver and made with some milsurp parts. Bi pod and really cool look. WELL BUILT. Easy to mount optics with extra part, it has an adjustable gas system and pretty good sights. Mags aren't too expensive. Negatives, very heavy, milsurp parts don't have matching numbers, very heavy trigger.
I ended up going with the FN FAL due to the construction and the way it balances plus everything I already mentioned. It is also in your price range.
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ol' scratch
Member
The difference between the DSA SA 58 and the DSA STG 58 are that the STG is made with some Steyr surplus parts while the SA 58 is all new production. Or that is the way it was explained to me.
Driftertank
Member
I won't argue with the fact that the HK cocking lever sucks for lefties, in fact I stated as such in another post. In fact many of the ergos suck for ANYONE who isn't an ape-armed right-hander like myself; People constantly complain about the safety and mag release too.
Frankly I'm not arguing that an HK/CETME rifle is right for the OP at this point, just sharing my opinions and observations. The recoil impulse is uncomfortable and brass gets beat up badly, as delivered from the factory. Both are easily remedied. The ergos are not. I've fitted a cocking lever from a 21E to mine, makes a BIG difference, but still sucks for lefties.
The sights are brilliant for target work; the front sight hood makes precisely centering the post simple. Just line up the two circles, put the center of the post on the target, and squeeze.
Am I a fanboy? A little bit. I won't overlook the faults in my gun, but have addressed most of them. And for me, the combination of accuracy, reliability, power, and parts availability win.
Frankly I'm not arguing that an HK/CETME rifle is right for the OP at this point, just sharing my opinions and observations. The recoil impulse is uncomfortable and brass gets beat up badly, as delivered from the factory. Both are easily remedied. The ergos are not. I've fitted a cocking lever from a 21E to mine, makes a BIG difference, but still sucks for lefties.
The sights are brilliant for target work; the front sight hood makes precisely centering the post simple. Just line up the two circles, put the center of the post on the target, and squeeze.
Am I a fanboy? A little bit. I won't overlook the faults in my gun, but have addressed most of them. And for me, the combination of accuracy, reliability, power, and parts availability win.
henschman
Member
FYI I shoot my M1A left handed sometimes when I practice shooting weak side, and there is no problem whatsoever with brass or anything else.
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