School Me On ARs...

ObsidianOne · Mar 12, 2012

First and foremost, I'm not looking for a 'target' rifle expecting to leave only one hole on the target and have the rest of the bullets glide through it. I'd like it to be accurate, but I'm reasonable.

Chambered in 5.56.
I'd like it to be all metal (no synthetic lowers/uppers) and mil-spec (Unlike the S&W MP-15 Sport model, missing dust cover and forward assist, etc.). Not looking for really any frills, just a good ol' iron sight, but the capability to move up to a red dot later on. I do like the Magpul rear irons. And a rail on the front would be nice, for a tac light, again, later on, so it's not necessary right now, but if I can kill two birds with one stone...

It seems to me that just buying a Palmetto State Armory PA-15 would be my best bet for $669.99, but could I get a little more bang for my buck if I buy and assemble myself?
The biggest challenge I'm finding right now is what brands to go with.
I've heard bad things about Del-Ton, some negative stuff about DPMS, some saying Spike's Tactical is losing it's glory in QC and customer service. What should I expect to pay for each item?

Can anyone give me some cold hard facts on who's products are quality, and who's are not and why for each one? Thank you

The War Wagon · Mar 12, 2012

Great series of threads on it here;

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60901

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24397

ObsidianOne · Mar 12, 2012

Unless I'm not reading everything thoroughly, I don't see anything about 'who's who and what's what' with those links. Good information, just not exactly what I'm looking for (or maybe like I said, I missed something?)

ChrisMG · Mar 12, 2012

War Wagon gave you links to probably the best source of info on the AR platform period. You've got a lot of reading to do.

dprice3844444 · Mar 12, 2012

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php?cat=

Cesiumsponge · Mar 12, 2012

M4C is one of the best no-mallninjary resources for AR info. I would spend a week there researching if serious about a no-frills mil-spec AR. I can save you the time and let you know what the crowd there will suggest as a basic no-frills mil-spec rifle to build upon. Colt 6920. Can be found for under $1000 with patience. That's the price of admission and it goes up from there. You'll get some people here claiming you're "paying for the logo" but that's simply regurgitated garbage. Colt's competition is in the same ballpark price range and held in equally high esteem by folks that have hard-use rifles.

SlowFuse · Mar 12, 2012

Building one doesn't necessarily save money, but you can get exactly what you want for a similar price as a factory built rifle.

jim243 · Mar 12, 2012

Based on what you are asking, you need to look here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/b/3_.html

Jim

dscottdennison · Mar 12, 2012

$1,000 is definitely paying for the logo when you can build the exact same thing for $600

dscottdennison · Mar 12, 2012

$400-$500 if you don't care about 1:7 barrel.

JustinJ · Mar 12, 2012

Saying the price of a Colt is just paying for the logo is like saying when you buy a Snap On tool over a chinese knock off you're just paying for the logo.

proven · Mar 12, 2012

dscottdennison, can you show me a parts breakdown with cost of how you would build an equal rifle to the 6920 for $600?

i'm very interested.

Cesiumsponge · Mar 12, 2012

Or explain how other high quality rifles similar to the Colt 6920 fall in the same price range. Colt's pricing isn't more expensive than similar competition. Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, Lewis Machine & Tool, Noveske, and probably a couple others I'm forgetting. A $600 AR is not the same as a $1000 AR any more than a $600 1911 being same as a $1000 1911. Let me know when DPMS or Olympic Arms get high reviews from firearms trainers that see hundreds of students run thousands of rounds through their classes.

Most people probably don't shoot enough volume for these differences to show up.

C-grunt · Mar 12, 2012

ObsidianOne. From what you wrote I believe what you want is a no corners cut, built to proper military spec (or better), hard use type of rifle. Those types of rifle are usually called "top teir" rifles. These brands include:

Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company
Lewis Machine and Tool
Knights Armament Corp
Knoveske

and maybe a couple more I cant think of right now.

What you get with one of these rifles over the other brands is properly built rifles made out of correct grade steels and that are properly tested. Each of these companies has a reputation of building rifles that will stand up to hard useage. There is more to building an Ar15 than just slapping the parts together. Just like there is more to building a car engine that just slapping the parts together.

The Colt 6920, which is the civilian version of the military M4, is considered the Gold Standard by which all other AR15s are judged. You can find them online for under a grand from places like www.gandrtactical.com and www.dsgarms.com

Another really good inexpensive option is a Bravo Company rifle. If you buy a blemish lower and one of their standard uppers you can have a complete rifle for right about 900 bucks. There website is www.bravocompanyusa.com

Fiv3r · Mar 12, 2012

I've been really happy with my Stag. They can be had in the $700-$800 range. No frills, shoots great, dust cover, forward assist, etc. FEELS like an M-4 anyway.

I've got about 1000 rounds through it without an issue. It's my favorite rifle

HoosierQ · Mar 12, 2012

Yep Stag. Get an upgraded charging handle (a milled one rather than their cast one) and some P-mags and you should be good to go. They are a good balance between entry level and "real operator" level...right there in the middle. Like all ARs, some people love them and some people hate on them. I think objectively, there is way more to love than to hate on a Stag.

Me...it is the perfect platform. Solid, well made, looks nice, etc.

983mauser · Mar 12, 2012

Armalite also makes a good AR-15 not "the best" but a good quality gun.

983mauser · Mar 12, 2012

Armalite also makes a good AR-15 not the best but a good quality gun.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

dscottdennison · Mar 12, 2012

Saying the price of a Colt is just paying for the logo is like saying when you buy a Snap On tool over a chinese knock off you're just paying for the logo.

Except a chinese knockoff hand tool is poorly machined out of crap metal... most other ARs, at least the parts I am talking about, are just as nicely machined (or better) out of the same metal... Do we really need to have the "core quality" argument again?

dscottdennison, can you show me a parts breakdown with cost of how you would build an equal rifle to the 6920 for $600?

i'm very interested.

*gasp* model1sales *gasp* 1:7 mil spec chrome lined barrel, m4 ramps, forged 7075 flat top mil spec m4 upper, standard front sight or flat gas block, your choice of stock, etc. $610. Sorry, make that $685 for the cheapest forged 7075 lower you can find. Now here come the "ZOMG model1sales is junk!" replies. You all make me laugh.

The best quote about ARs I ever heard was from an officer in the army who said they buy from the lowest bidder. If any of you think any nicely machined piece of forged 7075 is different than any other because it says Colt or Daniel Defense on it, you are kidding yourself.

Remember that "you get what you pay for" BS salesman line I was ranting about a while ago... hmm...

Kino74 · Mar 12, 2012

If you're looking to spend around $800 or so, Spikes and S&W do make a few models that are very nice for the money. ARs are very lego-like so the prices will vary depending on wants, needs and even taste.

Would something like this configuration be what you want?
Spikes carbine length
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-16-m4-le-carbine-p-387.html

Spikes midlength

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-16-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html

dscottdennison · Mar 12, 2012

A $600 AR is not the same as a $1000 AR any more than a $600 1911 being same as a $1000 1911.

I'm hearing pretty good things about these $400 Rock Island Armory 1911s as well... with some people even selling their 1 Kimber to buy 3 of them.

When you guys realize that exact thinking right there is the one and only reason that those "better" guns cost so much, we can all be happy about prices dropping by 50%.

proven · Mar 12, 2012

dscottdennison....good for you. you live in a land where model1sales is building rifles on par with colt, bcm, DD etc.

how long did it take you to ride your unicorn over the rainbow to get there?

dscottdennison · Mar 12, 2012

dscottdennison....good for you. you live in a land where model1sales is building rifles on par with colt, bcm, DD etc.

how long did it take you to ride your unicorn over the rainbow to get there?

They screw on a barrel.... Judging by your posts, yes, please do go buy something that is already assembled for you. We don't need any more guns getting bad names because people don't know how to do anything themselves and blow themselves up.

But what do I know? I'm just a quality engineer who saves money without sacrificing quality for a living.

dscottdennison · Mar 12, 2012

We are currently only 2,000 rounds each into both the "name brand" m4gery and "cheapest possible" m4gery torture tests with similar (few) problems with each so far. I will let everyone know when brand X 7075 aluminum fails before brand Y...

proven · Mar 12, 2012

so who's we? what are the test parameters? what are the rifles? let's see some pics/vid.

if you think screwing on a bbl is all it takes to build a quality ar, that shows exactly how much you know about the platform.

judging by mt posts? which exactly are you referring to? all this coming from a guy who let someone take his rifle and walk away at the range.

School Me On ARs...

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